Man's morality

[Darkstar]

Nope. I wouldn't argue that a fetus (specifically one that is not yet viable) is a baby. Get one that can survive outside the womb and we'll talk.

You are missing the larger point, abortion is just the vechical I am using to discuss ever changing morality of man.

Okay, that explains a lot.

Anything be justified and found to be 'moral' if the right propaganda is applied.

This is probably correct to some extent, but again, this wouldn't mean it was moral.

Which is what is so extremely dangerous about seperating yourself from the absolute standard of God. You essenially remove your ablity to apply checks and balances in your ablity to discern right and wrong.

Here is the recurring and fundamental disagreement I keep seeing. You keep asserting that the 'righteousness' found in the Bible is an absolutely perfect moral yardstick. If this were even remotely true, your argument would be valid. But it isn't even remotely true.

It happened with the Nazis

If lying is always wrong, should you admit to knowing where Jews were hidden?

in US Slavery

Jesus condoned slavery.

Manifest Destiny

Seemed to be a Jewish version of this going on when they killed or enslaved just about everyone in their promised land.

Through movements like the KKK, Hippys

What do you have against hippies?

Acts like Abortion, and even Gay marriage, and the undermining of the Traditional Family.

Appeal to tradition

The point being you probably do not have a problem with Gay marriage or gay adoption. Most don't because soceity has said it was ok. But what if soceity starts saying other things are ok that curently not? What if it becomes ok to start segergating the population again? What if the goverments votes and passes a law mandating that a certain group of people be made to up root themselves and be placed on a reservation of sorts? What if there were a catalyst like 9/11? or several events like 9/11, waged against say gay people/families, from supposed christian groups? Would it then be ok (If soceity says it was) to put christians in these camps?

Not unless literally everyone was doing it (as in, all Christians waging some sort of violent campaign against gays).

If not what would make you put on the brakes here and not any where else? Remember you would be justified in supporting this act because of several 9/11 size attacks on Gay people/families with more to come..

If more were to come, the government might keep a closer eye on Christian groups, but putting them in camps would be too much. Are they putting American Muslims into camps now?

In truth without absolutes, you will fold whether you can admit it or not.

And with flawed absolutes you have a broken system that can never be fixed.

Too many soceities have fallen to this morality of the masses, and whether you see it or not you are already aligned with the masses with no real way to oppose the mob mentality on your own. Fore if you will not stand for anything now other than what the mob deems right and wrong you will not change later. That is unless you find God.

Somehow slavery was defeated, despite the Bible being used to justify it. I don't make moral judgments based on popular opinion just because I don't use your particular holy book to do so. Claiming I can't know right from wrong without god is asinine at best, bigoted at worst.

That doesn't validate or invalidate the moral standard, nor was it meant to. It was simply to show that god is a hypocrite.

When 'we' kill babies, what is the reason? we simply do not want them.
When God killed an entire race of people what was the reason? To sculpt our history in such a way as to have the Jews survive and provide us with Jesus Christ and redemption..

Because the best plan an omniscient being can come up with is one involving genocide? You have to remember that he saw this stuff coming millennia in advance and could have changed the course of history in any way at any time if he wanted to.

Again if you could kill Hitler as a baby would you?

I think this is more of a "we don't know how that would actually affect history" thing than it is a "is it moral to kill a baby to preven the holocaust".

Now what if there were several races of Hitlers?

I imagine they wouldn't get along well. I don't think Hitler would accept being a follower. But again I'm thinking this through more than you had wanted.

So explain to me how this is hyprocrisy? You said what if an aborted baby was Zombie Zero, God is in a position to Identify those first 'Zombies.' So doesn't it stand to reason that if He wants us to be here He must eliminate those who would keep that from happening?

I don't think it would really matter. You speak of what god supposedly wants, but I ask this: do you think god wants people to stop having abortions? He sure hasn't done anything to stop them. Maybe he doesn't care? Or maybe these fetuses are all going to heaven early and he's happy? With these kinds of things, the best that can be done is speculation.

I understand that you consider the moral standards of our current society to be declining, but I do not.

I'm not sure how old you are, but give it time. 20 years ago TV and Movies were pushing the boundries of gay acceptance. Today I see the same push in sexualizing underage kids, and incest.

A agree that sexualizing young kids is bad, but I don't see a lot of that. This is probably because I don't view the kind of media that would potentially show it (I honestly have no idea how prevalent it is). As for incest, I have no idea what you're talking about.

To an extent, I think you are right. But, I do not think the standard by which to gauge this is the Bible.

There is literally no other standard in which to live by.

Even you should know better than this.

And yet I don't think this so called pure standard is all that great.

Then you do not understand the standard. even put more simply God wants you to do the absolute best you can do, and Christ will cover the rest. If that best includes an abortion, or even a gay relationship, or beating people in a gay relationship at somepoint, if that is the best you can literally do, then it will be enough.
All we are truly tasked with is to be faithful to what we have been given.

How vague. And I notice you haven't actually defined what this "best" is. Is the gay relationship, or the beating people is a gay relationship better? What you have presented is not the standard but the 'justification', that is, how you are supposedly allowed into heaven. Yet this doesn't say anything about what actually is right or wrong, in fact it condones the mob mentality you keep decrying.

I suppose if by 'standard' you meant 'the standard by which people are judged, post Jesus' then it would be correct. But Jesus also noted the importance of the laws. I realize that you say that following the laws is not necessary (as it is impossible), but you can still be saved if you accept Jesus. Yet, you use the laws as a standard by which to judge human morality (not that the Bible isn't technically human morality as well). And I agree with neither the laws (well, not all of them, anyway), nor the idea of an absolute standard for so many specific rules.