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Bibe Study 2: Questionable Morality
#1
Bibe Study 2: Questionable Morality
Christians say we need god because without him we have no basis for living a moral life. If the bible is the manual of Christian morality, it's no wonder the church is screwed up in what it deems as right or wrong.

Rape
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbor’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbor, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. (Deuteronomy 22”23-28)
How odd that there’s no commandment saying thou shalt not rape a woman. Instead, we get instructions on how to do it lawfully. Rape isn’t seen as a crime against women but against the husband or betrothed. A man has to marry the unwed woman that he rapes. Whether the woman wants to be in a Luke and Laura marriage isn’t at issue.
Misogyny
10 When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God delivers them into your hand, and you take them captive,
11 and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and desire her and would take her for your wife,
12 then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails.
13 She shall put off the clothes of her captivity, remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife.
14 And it shall be, if you have no delight in her, then you shall set her free, but you certainly shall not sell her for money; you shall not treat her brutally, because you have humbled her. (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)
It's very compassionate that this god commanded the men to let the captive mourn her parents whom they just killed for a whole month before they rape her. And if she doesn't please them they can throw her out on the street--a motherless child a long way from home. Few Christians would condone such hideous behavior, yet few Christians have the courage to admit the god in this book is not the god they want to serve
7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. (Exodus 21”4,8)
This is the god who said thou shalt not when it comes to abusing your neighbor’s donkey. But here he is laissez faire when you want to sell your daughter into sexual slavery and even gives instructions on how to do it.


Child Abuse
If you have children, you know that at times their behavior can be so rotten that you almost want to kill them. But would you? Well, the god of the Bible would and according to the Bible he has.
23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, "Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!" 24 So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. (2 Kings 2:23-24)
No matter how bad they get would you follow God's law for what should be done to your children?
18 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard. ' 21Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
What could your child do to make you feel justified to have him stoned to death? What could your dog do, for that matter?


Genocide
For God so loved the world that he sent his so-called chosen people to wipe out entire cities.
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.' (1 Samuel 15:3)
This order was given by the same god whom Christians today think is too merciful to send babies and small children to hell.
10 "When you go near a city to fight against it, then proclaim an offer of peace to it. 11 And it shall be that if they accept your offer of peace, and open to you, then all the people who are found in it shall be placed under tribute to you, and serve you. 12 Now if the city will not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. 13 And when the Lord your God delivers it into your hands, you shall strike every male in it with the edge of the sword. 14 But the women, the little ones, the livestock, and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall plunder for yourself; and you shall eat the enemies' plunder which the Lord your God gives you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

but Christians have an answer for this argument. You see, this is just an example of God’s justice under the old t testament, as opposed to his mercy under the new testament. No, this is an example of desert goatherds stealing land and claiming divine right.

Slavery
44 And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have--from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. 45 Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. 46 And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. But regarding your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor. (Leviticus 25:44-46)
Always in Church they point to the passages where God tells the children of Israel to be kind to strangers. Never in 25 years of study have I seen this passage where he tells them they can buy the children of strangers. I'd been steered clear away from it. Below are more verses to which ministers give a wide berth.
2 If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; and in the seventh he shall go out free and pay nothing. 3 If he comes in by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 But if the servant plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,'
6 then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever. (Exodus 21:2-6)
Humane Treatment of Sex slaves Exodus 21:7-11
7 "And if a man sells his daughter to be a female slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has betrothed her to himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt deceitfully with her. 9 And if he has betrothed her to his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. 10 If he takes another wife, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, and her marriage rights. 11 And if he does not do these three for her, then she shall go out free, without paying money.
20 And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. 21 Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property. (Exodus 21:20,21)
“If he remains alive for a day or two?”

Abortion
Ask any Christian where they got the idea that abortion is wrong, and they won’t be able to point to any scripture. Few know however that the bible actually condones abortion and gives explicit instructions on how a man can force his wife to abort if he suspects he’s not the father.
If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. (Numbers 5:27 NIV)
Talk about Bill Cunningham in the ancient world. Here’s the biblical DNA test to see if a woman has been faithful to her husband. This ought to be on reality television.
Reward and Punishment
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Abraham lies but the king was punished. (romans 4:5)
The verb justify is a proactive action that goes beyond mere condoning and declares that the ungodly are actually righteous. No matter what they do—lying, stealing, destroy, murdering, raping—you name it, if they have faith, this verse says god will declare them righteous.
30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
37 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.
38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day. (Genesis 19:30-38)
Some Christians might try to say this was because they didn’t have the law, so they didn’t know better. If they didn’t know what they were doing was wrong, why did they get him drunk first. Remember, too, these are the daughters he offered to the mob of angry men. Doubtless, there wasn’t much love or respect lost here.
But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt (Genesis 19: 26)
The old testament is supposed to be the dispensation of judgement rather than mercy. So, we can expect draconian punishments during that time. By some screwed up standard of morality what Lot’s wife did warranted immediate retribution while what his daughters did could be overlooked.
6 And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it.
7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God. (2 Samuel 6:6,7)

How dare he presume to help god. God doesn’t need our help. He can take care of his own ark. Thank you. So next time you some holy relic looking like it’s getting ready to fall, think about Uzzah.
Christian apologist say God killed him because by touching the ark he violated the law. So, is this an example of which laws have the greater priority? Uzzah was dead before he had time to think about what he was doing. He made a simple mistake that anybody could make. But King David actually had a man killed to hide the fact that he’d slept with the man’s wife. God sent a prophet to let David know that what he’d done was wrong. As if he didn’t know.
Apparently. the law that said thou shalt not touch the ark of god was far more important than the law that said thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.
He hardens pharaoh’s heart
Hos only answer I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy
Who am I to question god? I’m a human. A sentient being with thoughts and feelings, the ability to perceive injustice. Am I to believe god created me with these wonderful faculties but expects me to think like a lifeless piece of pottery?
The god who allows children to be raped out of respect for the free will choice of the rapist, but punishes gay men for engaging in mutually consensual sex couldn't possibly be responsible for an intelligently designed universe.

I may defend your right to free speech, but i won't help you pass out flyers.

Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
--Voltaire

Nietzsche isn't dead. How do I know he lives? He lives in my mind.
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#2
RE: Bibe Study 2: Questionable Morality
You're not supposed to mention the awkward bits.
Sanity adjacent.


Angel





IMGUR 
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#3
RE: Bibe Study 2: Questionable Morality
(May 16, 2019 at 5:16 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: You're not supposed to mention the awkward bits.

who me? Pull punches? Tiptoe around sensitive natures? Hell to the fuck no.
The god who allows children to be raped out of respect for the free will choice of the rapist, but punishes gay men for engaging in mutually consensual sex couldn't possibly be responsible for an intelligently designed universe.

I may defend your right to free speech, but i won't help you pass out flyers.

Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
--Voltaire

Nietzsche isn't dead. How do I know he lives? He lives in my mind.
Reply
#4
RE: Bibe Study 2: Questionable Morality
(May 16, 2019 at 7:27 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote:
(May 16, 2019 at 5:16 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: You're not supposed to mention the awkward bits.

who me? Pull punches? Tiptoe around sensitive natures? Hell to the fuck no.

Good answer.
Sanity adjacent.


Angel





IMGUR 
Reply
#5
RE: Bibe Study 2: Questionable Morality
(May 16, 2019 at 4:51 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: Christians say we need god because without him we have no basis for living a moral life. If the bible is the manual of Christian morality,  it's no wonder the church is screwed up in what it deems as right or wrong.



Ya know that men actually made up these stories simply claiming it was from god for effect.  

Can you imagine what would happen if men did that today? (please exclude the mormons and a few others from this train of logic)
God(s) and religions are man made and the bane of humanity. 

Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. Ozzy or Twain/take your pick
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#6
RE: Bibe Study 2: Questionable Morality
I thought I answered this already. But if not, here goes:

Morality is what I say is right.
Immorality is what I say is wrong!
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#7
RE: Bibe Study 2: Questionable Morality
Where most christians look around them and see a decent religion that people fail at, I see a failure of a religion that decent people drag around like a rock.

You missed vicarious redemption, though. The central and possibly most twisted component of christian faith.
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a battle to commence then KPLOW, I hit em with the illness of my quill, Im endowed..with certain unalienable skills....  

-ERB


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#8
RE: Bibe Study 2: Questionable Morality
There are some real moral gems in the book... there really are. But if someone actually used the Bible as an exclusive source of their morality, that would scare the shit out of me. Luckily, nobody DOES treat it as their exclusive moral guide. They use their own brains (like they ought) to figure out their basic moral principles.

The Golden rule- excellent. Forgive thy neighbor and try not to judge- excellent. There ARE good moral principles to be found in the Bible. But there are also terrible ones. Going to the high priest for a creepy abortion- foul! Judging whether a rape occured by who heard a woman cry out- foul!

If any Christians decide to address your (completely legitimate) concerns, get ready for some slippery apologetics.

Nice post, Rhonda. I found it to be quite thoughtful and thorough.
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#9
RE: Bibe Study 2: Questionable Morality
(May 16, 2019 at 9:14 pm)wyzas Wrote:
(May 16, 2019 at 4:51 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: Christians say we need god because without him we have no basis for living a moral life. If the bible is the manual of Christian morality,  it's no wonder the church is screwed up in what it deems as right or wrong.



Ya know that men actually made up these stories simply claiming it was from god for effect.  

Can you imagine what would happen if men did that today? (please exclude the mormons and a few others from this train of logic)

If we treated our children the way the bible claims god teats his we'd be put in jail for child abuse, child neglect, and child endangerment.

(May 16, 2019 at 9:28 pm)no one Wrote: I thought I answered this already. But if not, here goes:

Morality is what I say is right.
Immorality is what I say is wrong!

The only difference between you and a christian is that for a christian:

Morality is what they say god said is right.
Immorality is what they say god said is wrong.
The god who allows children to be raped out of respect for the free will choice of the rapist, but punishes gay men for engaging in mutually consensual sex couldn't possibly be responsible for an intelligently designed universe.

I may defend your right to free speech, but i won't help you pass out flyers.

Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
--Voltaire

Nietzsche isn't dead. How do I know he lives? He lives in my mind.
Reply
#10
RE: Bibe Study 2: Questionable Morality
(May 16, 2019 at 9:40 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: There are some real moral gems in the book... there really are. But if someone actually used the Bible as an exclusive source of their morality, that would scare the shit out of me. Luckily, nobody DOES treat it as their exclusive moral guide. They use their own brains (like they ought) to figure out their basic moral principles.

The Golden rule- excellent. Forgive thy neighbor and try not to judge- excellent. There ARE good moral principles to be found in the Bible. But there are also terrible ones. Going to the high priest for a creepy abortion- foul! Judging whether a rape occured by who heard a woman cry out- foul!

If any Christians decide to address your (completely legitimate) concerns, get ready for some slippery apologetics.

Nice post, Rhonda. I found it to be quite thoughtful and thorough.

No sane Christian is actually following those verses or using it as their exclusive source of morality, though. Which is why I don't see the point in topics like these, of which there are hundreds. Yeah, the Bible says awful shit. So? What does it matter? What's the point? Is it to make Christians feel bad, or so us atheists can all just jerk each other off and say "Yeah! Fuck Christianity!" I haven't bothered to really venture into any Biblical discussions online in... a very long time, because I don't really get it. Unless it's a legitimate discussion where both sides are interested in a mature analysis of the text, which is a laughable fantasy.

Drich or someone else will come in and say you don't understand it, and then cite ten more verses that contradict the OP, then an atheist will say "what about these ones that contradict yours," then Drich will say "what about these other ones that contradict your contradictions that contradicted the OP," and then they'll both call each other names and use the caps lock.
Memento Mori
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