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Man's morality
RE: Man's morality
(December 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Drich Wrote: The end result through whim, necessity, or justification through rationality is still change is it not? If 'morality is subject to change then all a people need do is justify a need through the perscribed channel.

The difference being it is not possible to rationally justify any and every arbritrary change.

(December 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Drich Wrote: Hitler's Germany made changes to rational through the means of propaganda.

That's not a change through rational means.


(December 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Drich Wrote: So, What makes you think this soceity is ammune to propaganda that people deem things like IDK killing babies a 'rational' thing to do?

It isn't immune - yet. But its getting there. Once we eliminate this irrationality called Christianity, we'll be closer to not accepting any and every ridiculous proposition as 'rational'.


(December 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Drich Wrote: can you viably demonstrate this using any historical examples? Or are you just trying to shift the burden of proof?

Sure. Hilter believed he was working according to the absolute standards of your god. In fact, most of the similar horrific acts are committed under that belief.


(December 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Drich Wrote: Define 'rational basis.'

A basis found in reality and compatible with the premises required for the existence of morality.


(December 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Drich Wrote: What would be an example of God creating some standard irrationally?

His morality.



(December 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Drich Wrote: Verses what you consider a ration reason for the creation of a standard.

There are no verses that I consider as the rational reason for creation of his standard - which is why I regard it as irrational.


(December 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Drich Wrote: No there is not. The only difference between the rational and having to rationalize something is Extremely trivial. In that the rational is accepted by pop culture, and having to rationalize something is having to find a reason to do something even though it may be taboo to pop culture. Cultures change from social classes to regional groupings or even from generation to generation. 'Rational' is a soft standard that leaders use to manipulate sheep.

This failure to understand the significant difference between the rational and the rationalized is precisley what I'd expect from a Christian sheep uneducated in logic. Simply finding an arbitrary reason is not sufficient to make something rational - that reason has to be validated through logic or brute facts. Ignorance of this difference is what leads people to try and follow the irrational standards setup by your supposed god.


(December 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Drich Wrote: Ah, no.. Where did you get this?

The reason Gay sex is forbidden is because it undermines the paradyme God establishes for us to express the different forms of love we are privy to. Through roles assoceiated by gender, and age. God has us play these roles as Father Son Mother daughter so we can have a better understanding of Him, The church, and each other. This will ultimatly helps us connect, respect, interact and love Him in an approperate way. This understanding is key for our seeking salvation and eternal life.

Take away these roles and even the most basic understanding of God is no longer possiable, dooming an indivisual to eternal seperation from God.

God does not care if we are plagued with parasites when our eternal future hangs in the balance.

Thus perfectly demonstrating my point about how rationalizing something doesn't make it rational.

The reasons given here are arbitrary. They have not been validated through logic or evidence. Which is why, despite your efforts to rationalize god's morality, it remains irrational.

(December 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Drich Wrote: Rational enough? God forbidding temporary self indulgence in exchange for the tools one needs to seek eternal life?

Not even close. Whimsically dictating rules and roles goes against the basic premise of morality - which is autonomy. That itself is sufficient to make your god's morality irrational. Apart form that, there is the fact that your wild claims here have not been validated, so they weren't in the contention of being rational to begin with.


(December 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Drich Wrote: Again it doesn't Because (now take the time to read this, this next part ends your arguement) God's morality has NOTHING To Do With our works.

Do you understand what i mean by this? keep reading

Morality is not defined by whether or not it values your works, it is defined by whether or not it dictates it - and your god's morality does. The difference that you are trying to "make up" is that negating the value of works (an irrational proposition for a morality) somehow exempts your god's morality from being a morality. It doesn't.


(December 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Drich Wrote: Again no. Soceity's morality is works based. One is deemed moral or immoral by his or her acts. God's righteousness/morality has nothing to do with what we do. It is attonement based.

And that is what makes society's morality a candidate for a sane and rational morality while it excludes your god's morality from being one.


(December 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Drich Wrote: yes, do you have proof that it didn't?

Sure. Humans were moral long before your bible came into existence.


(December 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Drich Wrote: If you can not see a vast difference between what God has established verses what you consider moral Your either being obstinate or your just plain stupid. you can not fegin ignorance at this point because I have taken the time to point you to Darkstar's thread where i explain this, and have directly explained this to you 3 or 4 times now.

Oh, I see a BIG difference between what your god has established as morality and what I regard as moral. But your redefinition is not about that. Its about redefining god's morality as something else altogether.


(December 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Drich Wrote: Let's try this. You have acknoweledged the difference between God's righteousness and your own morality in the above quote. You said that your morality was based on actions, and at the same time acknoweledge that Jesus said it was based on 'intentions' (which is not accurate, but for this discussion proves a seperation) between what you call moral and what God indenifies as moral/true righteousness.

If you think you can slip in your attempt at redefinition unnoticed, try doing a better job of it.

I'll acknowledge that there is a big difference between your supposed god's morality and my morality. What I call moral/true righteousness is not what your supposed god supposedly regards as moral/true righteousness. But that has been my position from the beginning - given my repeated statements regarding how mine is sane and rational and your god's is insane and irrational.


(December 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Drich Wrote: Now given what you just said will you now conceed this point that God's 'morality/righteousness' and what you see as morality is completely different?

Wrong. There is a BIG difference, but they are not completely different.

If a body of concepts/rules dictate human actions and classify human intentions as desirable/undesirable then that is referred to as morality.

Whether or not acting according to the concepts is ultimately regarded as significant or not is irrelevant. Given this point of common origin, your god's morality and my morality fall under the same category. If you want to redefine morality as righteousness, then you must likewise refer to my morality as righteousness as well.


(December 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Drich Wrote: If your pride isn't pulling your obstinance strings may we proceed in calling God's "Heart based morality" God's Righteousness, and what you understand to be works based morality as 'man's morality or even just morality?

No.

And its not pride, its semantic integrity. Reclassifying you god's morality as god's righteousness is the first step in bait-and-switch you intend to perpetrate. Your intention here could not be more clear: "If god's morality is not, in fact, a form of morality, then it cannot be held to the same standards we regard other moral systems with and therefore, somehow ends up being above them all. If it does not belong to the same category of ideas, then the standards applicable to that category do not apply to god's morality. Therefore, there can be no way to scrutinize, evaluate and judge god's morality - or, as it has been redefined - righteousness."

Right now, you fail at the first step - establishing your god's morality as something of a different category.


(December 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Drich Wrote: Before we proceed we must come to this understanding first.

Contrary to what you might think, I've understood you from the beginning. And I'm not buying your bullshit.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Man's morality - by Drich - November 27, 2013 at 12:17 am
RE: Man's morality - by MindForgedManacle - November 27, 2013 at 12:35 am
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - November 27, 2013 at 10:53 am
RE: Man's morality - by Whateverist - November 27, 2013 at 11:45 am
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - November 27, 2013 at 12:19 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - November 27, 2013 at 12:20 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - November 27, 2013 at 1:04 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Whateverist - November 27, 2013 at 1:07 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - November 27, 2013 at 1:50 pm
RE: Man's morality - by tokutter - November 27, 2013 at 2:52 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - November 27, 2013 at 3:12 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - November 27, 2013 at 3:31 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - November 27, 2013 at 4:07 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - November 27, 2013 at 4:14 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - November 27, 2013 at 4:47 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - November 27, 2013 at 4:56 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Darkstar - November 27, 2013 at 12:32 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - November 27, 2013 at 2:33 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - November 27, 2013 at 3:02 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Darkstar - November 27, 2013 at 4:25 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - November 29, 2013 at 11:50 am
RE: Man's morality - by freedomfromforum - November 29, 2013 at 2:06 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - November 29, 2013 at 11:22 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Darkstar - November 29, 2013 at 10:45 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - November 30, 2013 at 2:23 pm
RE: Man's morality - by houseofcantor - November 30, 2013 at 2:40 pm
RE: Man's morality - by houseofcantor - December 2, 2013 at 10:31 am
RE: Man's morality - by Darkstar - November 30, 2013 at 11:10 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 2, 2013 at 4:38 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Darkstar - December 2, 2013 at 8:02 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Esquilax - December 3, 2013 at 3:58 am
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 3, 2013 at 11:49 am
RE: Man's morality - by genkaus - November 28, 2013 at 5:17 am
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - November 28, 2013 at 9:38 am
RE: Man's morality - by genkaus - November 28, 2013 at 11:58 am
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - November 30, 2013 at 1:24 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - November 30, 2013 at 1:56 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - November 30, 2013 at 2:44 pm
RE: Man's morality - by houseofcantor - November 30, 2013 at 3:05 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 2, 2013 at 9:53 am
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - December 2, 2013 at 9:56 am
RE: Man's morality - by Whateverist - December 2, 2013 at 10:52 am
RE: Man's morality - by Silver - November 30, 2013 at 1:59 pm
RE: Man's morality - by max-greece - November 28, 2013 at 7:21 am
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - November 27, 2013 at 12:36 am
RE: Man's morality - by Darkstar - November 27, 2013 at 12:41 am
RE: Man's morality - by Whateverist - November 27, 2013 at 1:16 am
RE: Man's morality - by pineapplebunnybounce - November 27, 2013 at 1:34 am
RE: Man's morality - by max-greece - November 27, 2013 at 1:35 am
RE: Man's morality - by rexbeccarox - November 27, 2013 at 2:19 am
RE: Man's morality - by Cinjin - November 27, 2013 at 2:26 am
RE: Man's morality - by downbeatplumb - November 27, 2013 at 5:04 am
RE: Man's morality - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 27, 2013 at 5:05 am
RE: Man's morality - by max-greece - November 27, 2013 at 6:52 am
RE: Man's morality - by Raven - November 27, 2013 at 7:12 am
RE: Man's morality - by Optimistic Mysanthrope - November 27, 2013 at 12:31 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Whateverist - November 27, 2013 at 12:45 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Tonus - November 27, 2013 at 12:57 pm
RE: Man's morality - by orogenicman - November 27, 2013 at 12:49 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Godlesspanther - November 27, 2013 at 2:40 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - November 27, 2013 at 2:49 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Godlesspanther - November 27, 2013 at 2:57 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Godlesspanther - November 27, 2013 at 3:40 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Silver - November 27, 2013 at 4:10 pm
RE: Man's morality - by genkaus - November 28, 2013 at 4:12 am
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - November 30, 2013 at 1:21 pm
RE: Man's morality - by genkaus - December 4, 2013 at 3:57 am
RE: Man's morality - by Tonus - December 4, 2013 at 9:59 am
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 4, 2013 at 2:20 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - December 4, 2013 at 2:24 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Tonus - December 4, 2013 at 3:31 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 5, 2013 at 10:22 am
RE: Man's morality - by Tonus - December 5, 2013 at 1:19 pm
RE: Man's morality - by I am God - December 4, 2013 at 3:40 pm
RE: Man's morality - by downbeatplumb - December 11, 2013 at 3:03 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 11, 2013 at 5:29 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Esquilax - November 28, 2013 at 6:07 am
RE: Man's morality - by genkaus - November 28, 2013 at 6:30 am
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - November 28, 2013 at 12:04 pm
RE: Man's morality - by max-greece - November 28, 2013 at 12:47 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Whateverist - November 28, 2013 at 2:38 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Godlesspanther - November 28, 2013 at 2:32 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Faith No More - November 28, 2013 at 3:30 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Cinjin - November 29, 2013 at 9:02 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Godlesspanther - November 29, 2013 at 1:34 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - November 30, 2013 at 11:01 am
RE: Man's morality - by Godlesspanther - November 30, 2013 at 1:22 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - November 29, 2013 at 1:48 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Neo-Scholastic - November 29, 2013 at 9:11 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Captain Colostomy - November 29, 2013 at 9:20 pm
RE: Man's morality - by houseofcantor - November 30, 2013 at 11:58 am
RE: Man's morality - by max-greece - November 30, 2013 at 2:18 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Godlesspanther - November 30, 2013 at 5:04 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 2, 2013 at 10:22 am
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - December 2, 2013 at 10:36 am
RE: Man's morality - by tokutter - December 2, 2013 at 11:59 am
RE: Man's morality - by Godlesspanther - December 2, 2013 at 3:48 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - December 2, 2013 at 9:19 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 3, 2013 at 10:41 am
RE: Man's morality - by I am God - December 3, 2013 at 11:58 am
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 3, 2013 at 12:11 pm
RE: Man's morality - by orogenicman - December 3, 2013 at 12:36 pm
RE: Man's morality - by I am God - December 3, 2013 at 1:50 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 3, 2013 at 2:23 pm
RE: Man's morality - by I am God - December 3, 2013 at 4:37 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Godlesspanther - December 3, 2013 at 4:04 pm
RE: Man's morality - by tokutter - December 3, 2013 at 4:22 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 3, 2013 at 5:04 pm
RE: Man's morality - by MindForgedManacle - December 3, 2013 at 8:51 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Darkstar - December 3, 2013 at 11:03 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 4, 2013 at 1:58 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - December 4, 2013 at 2:20 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 4, 2013 at 2:48 pm
RE: Man's morality - by genkaus - December 5, 2013 at 2:00 am
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 5, 2013 at 12:16 pm
RE: Man's morality - by genkaus - December 5, 2013 at 3:14 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm
RE: Man's morality - by genkaus - December 5, 2013 at 5:30 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 6, 2013 at 12:25 pm
RE: Man's morality - by I am God - December 6, 2013 at 1:17 pm
RE: Man's morality - by MindForgedManacle - December 6, 2013 at 1:39 pm
RE: Man's morality - by I am God - December 6, 2013 at 1:42 pm
RE: Man's morality - by MindForgedManacle - December 6, 2013 at 9:45 pm
RE: Man's morality - by genkaus - December 9, 2013 at 2:39 am
RE: Man's morality - by I am God - December 6, 2013 at 11:38 am
RE: Man's morality - by Darkstar - December 5, 2013 at 8:41 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 6, 2013 at 1:51 pm
RE: Man's morality - by I am God - December 6, 2013 at 2:10 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 9, 2013 at 11:34 am
RE: Man's morality - by I am God - December 10, 2013 at 2:39 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 10, 2013 at 4:17 pm
RE: Man's morality - by I am God - December 11, 2013 at 1:10 pm
RE: Man's morality - by ThomM - December 10, 2013 at 7:27 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 11, 2013 at 10:14 am
RE: Man's morality - by Tonus - December 11, 2013 at 10:52 am
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 11, 2013 at 11:11 am
RE: Man's morality - by Esquilax - December 11, 2013 at 11:40 am
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 11, 2013 at 11:48 am
RE: Man's morality - by Esquilax - December 11, 2013 at 11:59 am
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 11, 2013 at 12:29 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Esquilax - December 11, 2013 at 12:49 pm
RE: Man's morality - by EgoRaptor - December 11, 2013 at 12:08 pm
RE: Man's morality - by ThomM - December 11, 2013 at 6:51 pm
RE: Man's morality - by EgoRaptor - December 11, 2013 at 11:43 am
RE: Man's morality - by Tonus - December 11, 2013 at 12:39 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 11, 2013 at 1:13 pm
RE: Man's morality - by I am God - December 11, 2013 at 2:53 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 12, 2013 at 3:05 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Tonus - December 12, 2013 at 4:21 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 12, 2013 at 11:02 pm
RE: Man's morality - by genkaus - December 13, 2013 at 2:51 am
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 13, 2013 at 1:51 pm
RE: Man's morality - by genkaus - December 14, 2013 at 4:39 am
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 16, 2013 at 5:25 pm
RE: Man's morality - by I am God - December 16, 2013 at 1:54 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 16, 2013 at 6:40 pm
RE: Man's morality - by I am God - December 17, 2013 at 4:07 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 18, 2013 at 3:17 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 18, 2013 at 4:31 pm
RE: Man's morality - by I am God - December 20, 2013 at 2:06 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Tonus - December 18, 2013 at 4:51 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Darkstar - December 6, 2013 at 7:44 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 9, 2013 at 12:41 pm
RE: Man's morality - by genkaus - December 12, 2013 at 6:59 am
RE: Man's morality - by ThomM - December 2, 2013 at 11:12 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - November 30, 2013 at 8:23 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Chas - November 30, 2013 at 9:12 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - November 30, 2013 at 9:22 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Neo-Scholastic - November 30, 2013 at 9:36 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Whateverist - November 30, 2013 at 10:20 pm
RE: Man's morality - by MindForgedManacle - November 30, 2013 at 10:58 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - December 1, 2013 at 11:36 am
RE: Man's morality - by ThomM - December 1, 2013 at 3:40 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 3, 2013 at 1:26 pm
RE: Man's morality - by orogenicman - December 3, 2013 at 3:26 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 3, 2013 at 4:53 pm
RE: Man's morality - by I am God - December 3, 2013 at 5:02 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Silver - December 3, 2013 at 1:30 pm
RE: Man's morality - by max-greece - December 3, 2013 at 5:09 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 4, 2013 at 11:16 am
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - December 4, 2013 at 12:04 pm
RE: Man's morality - by max-greece - December 4, 2013 at 12:42 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - December 4, 2013 at 2:27 am
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - December 4, 2013 at 3:43 pm
RE: Man's morality - by WesOlsen - December 4, 2013 at 4:40 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Optimistic Mysanthrope - December 4, 2013 at 6:11 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - December 4, 2013 at 6:16 pm
RE: Man's morality - by max-greece - December 5, 2013 at 3:21 am
RE: Man's morality - by Angrboda - December 5, 2013 at 12:19 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 5, 2013 at 1:55 pm
RE: Man's morality - by MindForgedManacle - December 5, 2013 at 5:41 pm
RE: Man's morality - by MindForgedManacle - December 5, 2013 at 12:33 pm
RE: Man's morality - by WesOlsen - December 5, 2013 at 1:40 pm
RE: Man's morality - by EgoRaptor - December 11, 2013 at 10:34 am
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 11, 2013 at 10:51 am
RE: Man's morality - by EgoRaptor - December 11, 2013 at 10:54 am
RE: Man's morality - by Jacob(smooth) - December 11, 2013 at 11:25 am
RE: Man's morality - by Esquilax - December 11, 2013 at 11:46 am
RE: Man's morality - by Godlesspanther - December 13, 2013 at 2:29 pm
RE: Man's morality - by MindForgedManacle - December 15, 2013 at 12:43 am
RE: Man's morality - by Silver - December 16, 2013 at 5:28 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 17, 2013 at 11:18 am
RE: Man's morality - by Whateverist - December 17, 2013 at 11:42 am
RE: Man's morality - by Ksa - December 20, 2013 at 2:56 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 20, 2013 at 3:32 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Ksa - December 20, 2013 at 3:46 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Drich - December 20, 2013 at 11:17 pm
RE: Man's morality - by Bob Kelso - December 20, 2013 at 11:28 pm

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