Nelson Mandela dies.

[Brian37]

Can we not use this thread for stupid fights? Have some fucking respect, people.

I don't want people to "respect" me. It is stupid to expect 7 billion people to only say nice things about each other. As far as Lion he can come after me if he wants on this issue or any other. This is about his claims, not him the person. I don't take it personally and I would hope Lion doesn't either.

I want people to value my position, because it is correct, not because I want it to be right or feel it is right. "Respect" means "Don't bruise my ego". I don't value people who want to set up taboos to avoid verbal conflict. It should be more important what the facts are, than the fact either of us bitch at each other.

When I say Mandela's beliefs on god should not matter, it is because our species no matter our labels, have always displayed the same capacity for both cruelty and kindness.

I am going to assume that Lion is an adult and can handle himself, so please don't decide for him or me how we have our conversation.

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Can we not use this thread for stupid fights? Have some fucking respect, people.

Fair point. Sorry.

But, it IS Brian's thread. And he seems to have taken exception to me praising NM's religious values which he lived. (Especially the way he forgave his former enemies and even in prison, he remained calm and stoic.)

Um you think that is lost on me? He was a leader a president, when you are that high up in the public eye your behavior is different. Now considering how oppressed his people were, do you think he'd have the attitude of "don't offend me", which was the attitude of those who oppressed him?

In a U.N. Speech, I do believe it was the last one, Obama pretty much defended offensive speech and was basically calling out countries that have laws that ban dissent and criticism and blasphemy. He said something to the affect " I hear it all the time"......Meaning his critics and and people calling him all sorts of names. He was calling out those oppressive governments basically saying to get along you do have to realize, within even your own country, you are going to hear things you don't like.

He's right, because in a free society to have that peaceful transfer of power YOU CANT set up taboos.

One of my favorite founders personal letters was from Jefferson in response to Adams. Adams had sent him a letter complaining about the media mud slinging and that society needed to "respect their elected officials.

Jefferson, in much more lofty and proper prose than I can write responded to the affect, "Dude, you're kidding, right? We did not fight a revolution to tell the people they couldn't have their opinions of us or blaspheme us, grow up, it is going to happen".

There is a huge difference between protecting an office as part of an institution, and having an opinion of those who hold those offices. I don't think Mandela would demand taboos and set up censorship anymore than say Malala or King. They'd all probably say, it isn't a matter of forcing others to be silent, but how you deal with others when they say things you don't like.