RE: Can christians here explain Mark 5:2-13?
December 15, 2013 at 8:40 pm
(This post was last modified: December 15, 2013 at 8:41 pm by Brakeman.)
(December 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: The quick answer to most of your questions is an issue of sovereignty.Umm, no it isn't, it isn't even germane to the topic. Nowhere is it espoused that jesus/god lacked power.
(December 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: God is sovereign. An illustration is in the book of Job 1:6-12. Here we see that Satan (the leader and most powerful fallen angel) came before God and was only able to influence Job's life after gaining permission from God and God limited the power Satan was given.Kinda a dick move by god there too huh?
(December 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: 1. Where did the man's will and the demon's will start and end?So basically you're saying god does whatever he likes. He makes demons that can possess and control a human and then send that human to hell if he doesn't do what pleases god, never mind the man's lack of free will and self determination. The point is free will. You have it and I assume no demon is possessing you right now. You can choose to follow jesus and be a good christian, but what if you were suddenly beset upon by a demon that makes you spew blasphemy? Would that be fair to you to have your immortal soul in danger? What if the demon made you an atheist like me, would that be fair? The question asked how much power can a demon have over a man? God's sovereignty or power isn't the answer because god seems just fine with making demons that can control and terrorize men. The question was how far does he let it go and why?
The beginning and ending of the demon's will rests within the sovereignty of God, what He gives them the power to do and not to do at any given moment. ..
(December 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: 2. How did the possessed man recognize jesus? If the demon's told him that jesus was real and identified him, isn't that an unfair advantage? Why can't demons tell all of us which god is real?Sure, in your myth they could tell us, but that would give us supernatural proof of god's existence which for some odd reason isn't allowed anymore now that science is here. Who wouldn't suffer a few minutes of demon possession to get the absolute unmistakable proof that your god is real and is the right one? You say that they wouldn't help jesus any but in the story they certainly did. They identified jesus for the man.
How the man recognized Jesus is beyond the scope of my knowledge but it is quite possible that the demons did tell the man who Jesus is though that is not revealed in the text. The middle of your question is again answered by God's sovereignty, they cannot resist His will. Demons certainly could tells us who God is. James 2:19 says "Thou believest that there is one God, thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." However, they are in rebellion against God so they would certainly have no interest in testifying upon His behalf.
(December 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: 3. If the man's free will is strong enough to drag the demons within him toward jesus, why couldn't he have excised them himself?ahh.. now you state that god limits demons. Why would he limit demons in some, not in others, and have the majority unpossessed completely. Why is god unconcerned with being fair to all of us humans?
Here again it isn't the man's free will that allowed him to drag the demons toward Jesus but rather God's sovereignty limited the power the demons had over the man. The man was helpless against them until he met Jesus.
(December 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: 4. Why would the demons relinquish control since they obviously knew that meeting jesus wouldn't go well for them?So why was "god's sovereignty" only a factor when jesus cam walking around? Why was god happy with the poor man suffering for all of those years?
Again God's sovereignty.
(December 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: 5. Why would a loving god allow demon possession?In other words, god just likes to dick around with us to show us who's boss, like a kid pulling the legs off an ant.
One of the toughest questions. Why would a loving God allow...?
.. The last part is the focus: that the works of God should be made manifest in him. ..
(December 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: 6. What happened to the demons ultimately? From the story, it appeared as though they died. Can demon's simply die and no longer exist?So the demons that god created were really stupid and have no free will of their own either. They aren't allowed to become "saved", they are created to simply burn in hell forever. Sux to be them doesn't it? I don't think I'd go running up and tell a man that god is in town if it was going to get me into hell faster, now would I?
.. They did not die, nor will they die. They will be tormented in everlasting fire.
(December 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: 7. Why did the demons drive the pigs into the sea to drown?What could scare a demon more than hell? how could god scare them to a hell by suicide when hell is supposed to be the worst thing?
I've also wondered this as well as why the townspeople would beg Jesus to leave. The text doesn't provide an answer to either of those questions at least to my knowledge.
Unless of course you claim that god is pulling all of the strings and demons and humans are just helpless puppets.
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