What do believers say when you ask or tell them..

[tavarish]

Since this is a crude caricature that doesn't reflect what I actually believe, there is nothing here for me to respond to. I have zero interest in answering for beliefs I don't have.

You said Christianity is based on belief and grace rather than actions in life. I was addressing that. The only characteristic that God would consider is your belief in him. Would that be a fair assessment?

The Quranic passages you cited address unbelievers (Kafir) and therefore don't apply to me, since according to Islam I'm included among the "People of the Book" (and therefore Al-Muttaqun, the pious).

"[Those] of the Scripture stand for the right. They recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer; they believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin Al-Maruf [that which Allah considers good] and forbid Al-Munkar [that which Allah considers bad]; and they hasten in all good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are Al-Muttaqun [the pious]" (3:113-115).

"And there are certainly among the people of the Scripture, Jews and Christians, those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price; for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely God is Swift in account" (3:199).

"Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve" (2:62).

Those alarming verses about disbelievers, rejecters, Kafir? That's people like atheists, among others. As I said, even if my religion is wrong I'll be all right, given the balance of good works—even under Islam, for I'm Ahl al-Kitab, among the righteous who believe in God, enjoin Al-Maruf, etc., and shall have my reward with my Lord.

Yes, they do address the kufar (kafir), or infidels. Islam also has choice words for Christians:

"If only they [i.e. Christians] had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil" (5:66).

"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171).

Koran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"


...and some more gems:

Koran 5:51
Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrong-doers.

Koran 9:29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last day, nor hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jiziyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued.

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good)] (Al `Imran: 85).

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah

Koran 5:10
As for those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are the heirs of Hell.


People of the Book refer to Christians and Jews, as you pointed out.

Clearly a religion of peace and tolerance.

Wrong. I addressed that. "My life will not have been a waste, because ... [even if my beliefs were wrong] (i) they were the guiding principle that led to those good works and (ii) in the afterlife it won't ultimately matter anyway." Maybe you think it would be "kind of a drag" but, frankly, what does that have to do with me?

Ultimately, no one's life matters. I personally wouldn't want to spend time entertaining a delusion because it makes me feel fuzzy inside. It's also a good thing that there is no evidence to support the claim that God, much less Christian God exists.

Grain of salt, take it.

If religion helps you be a better person, then be all that you can be.

Anyone. If Christianity is false, will that be of importance to the Atheist who dies? The Wiccan? The Muslim? The Buddhist? The Hindu? Nope. If Christianity is false, will that be of importance to the Christian who dies? Nope, for they lose nothing. If any other religion is true, they enter the afterlife on a balance of good works. If atheism is true, they decompose in their grave, having lived a life of good works on balance.

I'm going to start my own religion, I'm tired of paying taxes every year and don't like the uncertainty of going to hell for eating ham or the wrong day.

It is of no importance if Christianity turns out to be false, but of infinite importance if it turns out to be true.

What if Zeus turned out to be real? Ho-lee shit.

Irrelevant to the point I was making, which had nothing to do with identifying God as the creator of the universe. It never ceases to amaze me, the keystrokes some atheists here will waste raising objections to things no one said (like "putting an extra factor in the equation" when nobody in the conversation did any such thing).

You were making the point that the universe somehow had a beginning by citing the BGV paper that's so frequently used by William Lane Craig. Perhaps I was reading too far into your posts, but what exactly were you trying to say with that statement?