RE: Q: do you, Christian, claim that God exists, rather than you believe that he exists?
February 22, 2014 at 5:04 am
(This post was last modified: February 22, 2014 at 5:26 am by fr0d0.)
(February 21, 2014 at 9:51 pm)Esquilax Wrote:(February 21, 2014 at 7:19 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: I say belief has to be based on the non empirical. Rational thought, produces belief, which produces our understanding of the world. Not the other way around.
I think you're missing a step, though, and that step is testing those beliefs to see if they match up to the external reality. After all, you can't just think something into existence; stopping at the "having beliefs" stage puts you on the same footing as any old crazy person with a fantasy in their head. In fact, it puts you in the position of considering multiple, mutually contradictory beliefs rational at the same time, where they come up.
That's where empiricism comes in. Without it, you're living in a bizarre, solipsistic world, or you're engaging in special pleading.
See that's a huge weakness you have. You refuse to entertain logic which cannot be proven via external reality directly.
Directly, because the logic is consistent with all other logic, that ties with reality. The only difference with the God belief, for example, is that a primary constraint is that it is atemporal. So you must apply everything but that. You refuse to accept the logical constraint, and end up being illogical because of that very fact.
(February 21, 2014 at 11:02 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: That is, if one has a strong existential belief in X, one could only say that one knows one believes X, it doesn't speak to the actual existence of X.
Reason and empiricism seem to me to be at their best when they are complimentary.
1. Absolutely. That's why Christians can't claim empirical existence for God.
2. That's a given.
(February 22, 2014 at 12:20 am)rasetsu Wrote: Vagueness and ambiguity is, to my mind, what makes communication in language so powerful. If it didn't have this looseness about it, we'd hardly be able to talk in anything less than book length sentences with any clarity.
Well that's me off the hook!
(February 22, 2014 at 12:52 am)whateverist Wrote: isn't it enough to look for God within without supposing it is something outside of ourselves?
To me, gods perfection is what gives me reference. If he were inside me only, I don't think I could maintain that. I'm in awe of his perfection and when I express my gratitude to him that's when I feel close to him. It's like I'm understanding my part in nature.
Ah we have a winner! Drich has voted gnostic.
