Q: do you, Christian, claim that God exists, rather than you believe that he exists?

[Bad Writer]

We've been down this road many times. So far no theist has made a convincing demonstration that the mere existence of the universe is evidence for anything but its mere existence.

Given God the creator, creation is all the evidence we need of his intervention. Nothing further needs to be said or done. That statement is complete.

Further proof of anything about anything is redundant conjecture.

I skipped right to the end of this thread, but I don't need to read what has transpired thus far in order to say that this is pretty laughable, frods. God the Creator is not a given. If it was a given, then everyone would know. The Bible would have been sitting on a shelf in Adam and Eve's library without anyone ever having to write it first.

That's not how it went down. Men had to write to the Bible, and write it they did. This is because nothing was a given...they couldn't figure anything out, so they felt they had to make something up. So sue me if a giant, angry spirit named Yahweh actually spoke to them in the desert, but, for now, there is no reason to believe that that's actually what happened.

Now, if Yahweh isn't your god frodo, then forgive me for being so presumptuous. Saying that the universe was created by your god is a given is akin to saying that men have always known that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. We know this isn't true because later on down the road in the history of humanity is when we finally discovered the existence of molecules, and, thus, atoms.

If we someday discover that the universe was indeed sparked into existence by a creator god, then whoop-dee-doo. Until then, we need to find that irrefutable evidence.