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Current time: September 20, 2024, 11:10 pm

Poll: I claim...
This poll is closed.
that God exists empirically
21.05%
4 21.05%
that I believe in God
21.05%
4 21.05%
none of the above
57.89%
11 57.89%
Total 19 vote(s) 100%
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Q: do you, Christian, claim that God exists, rather than you believe that he exists?
RE: Q: do you, Christian, claim that God exists, rather than you believe that he exists?
(February 24, 2014 at 10:56 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: What burden of responsibility and measure of condemnation then does the believer who fails to present adequate reasons for belief bear? Any? Is it really only on the person who rejects the claims, in spite of their willingness to listen impartially? So weak evidence can never be weak evidence? Irreversible guilt accrues for exercising honest skepticism? Nice system you have there.

Your questions merit a thoughtful, sincere, and charitable response. So I beseech you to bear with me as I attempt to furnish a worthy reply.

I am a skeptic. I know this may come as a shock to you, but I am. When someone tells me they speak for God, naturally, I am skeptical. I think a healthy dose of skepticism is appropriate, for there lies great danger in simply accepting anything and everything at face value without searching the matter out. God instructs me to "try and test and prove" a matter before accepting. He also instructs me to "hold on to that which is good." God has invited me to "come and reason with Him".

The scriptures make it very clear that we are to love God with all our MINDS as well as our hearts.

Secondly, what is "weak" or what is "adequate" is primarily a subjective matter. For one person argument (a) is a weak argument for God's existence. For another, (a) is a strong argument. For one person, line of evidence (e) is an adequate line of evidence. For another, the same line is an inadequate line of evidence. Both lines and both arguments are the same, but two different people come to two different conclusions. In this it is seen that it is something about the persons which causes them to judge the matter differently. That is not to say that there does not exist one objective truth on the matter. It simply means that what we deem adequate or strong is in large part subjective.

If I perceive God to be a bloodthirsty tyrannical fellow who is the worst possible person that could ever exist whose existence would mean the demise of my autonomy and "liberty" then I am naturally gonna hope this bloke does not really exist!!!! For who sits around hoping and wishing that their worst nightmare is gonna come true?

If on the other hand, I perceive God to be the most gracious, the most loving, the most kind person that could exist whose existence assures me that He will take care of me, then naturally I am gonna hope this God actually exists.

If our perception of God correlates with our personal desire then we will hope God exists. We will want Him to exist. If our perception of God does not correlate with our personal desire then we will not want Him to exist.

So before we even venture into what is evidence for God's existence, we must sit down with our own selves and ask ourselves honestly, what is it that we desire? For we have to admit that our desires play a part in this, among other factors.

Surely some may say: Ahhh! but desiring something does not make it actually exist! To this I would agree. Just because I may want there to be a God does not mean God exists. God's existence is an ontological issue and is in no way dependent upon my desire. But to sit back and say: "I am objective and my desires and my wishes and my hopes for my life in no way play a part in my judging what is evidence for God's existence" is simply naive and self deceiving. Huxley mentioned it so succinctly when he said: 'I had motive for not wanting the world to have a meaning; consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption'. Here Huxley is transparent as some are loathe to be.

Do I believe all atheists are like Huxley? Of course not! Do I believe all atheists secretly desire that God does not exist for evil reasons? Of course not! Do I think some are sincerely seekers of truth? Of course I do! Do I believe some try to appear to be sincere seekers of truth but actually hope that God does not exist, yes, I believe this.

Christ has instructed me that I should always be ready to give a defense for the hope that I have with all meekness and gentleness. This is as much as God requires of me. If I out of love for you give you that which God has instructed me to give you in the way of a defense and you reject it for whatever reason then my responsibility and duty has been discharged. I have done all that God has asked me. Notice the keyword "if". I do believe there are people who try and convince people that God exists and they do so not out of love or by the will of God but rather out of a desire to appear learned and superior. It is these that God shall judge because their intent was evil.

With regards to people listening impartially, this is not so easy to do. Why? Because once again, none of us has grown up in isolation. We often are partial to that which correlates with our desire, or our upbringing, or what our friends think or like. We all have preconceived ideas about reality based on numerous factors. We should try to be impartial when examining evidence of course but just because we should be does not mean we always are.

Some people have admitted that the real reasons they were reluctant to believe in God had nothing at all to do with lack of evidence, but rather, that they were simply afraid of what would become of their life if they acknowledged His existence. These people were afraid that they would have to "give up" some things that they were doing that they knew were contrary to God. They were afraid to give up what they thought was their autonomy and liberty. They believed that if they were to admit God's existence then if they were to be honest, they would have to see it through to the end. For some this was the hardest decision they had to make. For in a sense, they would be dying.

Do all atheists feel this way? I cannot say. I do not know anyone's heart but my own but I have tried to place myself in their shoes and for some I know it must be a scary prospect.

But if we are to seek truth, we must follow it, wherever it leads. The question is, do you really want it at all cost, even if the cost is your autonomy?

To all of you here I ask:

What is truth worth to you? We measure something's worth by how much we are willing to sacrifice to obtain that something. What are you willing to give up so that truth might be yours?

This is where the rubber meets the road. For up to this point, we have had to sacrifice nothing. You see, it is easy to talk about seeking truth just like it is easy to talk about denying yourself and dying daily. It is easy for Christians to sit around in their lavish seminaries and talk about love and talk about taking up their cross and following Christ. It is an altogether different thing to love your fellow man. It is an altogether different thing to take up one's cross and die daily. Death is painful. Love requires sacrifice. It is not easy. But I am persuaded that it is worth it because I SEE THE EFFECTS of this and I OBSERVE WITH MY OWN TWO EYES the cause and effect relationship of loving and dying to self ( I speak as a scientist now ). The EFFECTS that living a life of selfless love produces is the EVIDENCE that my beliefs are grounded and rooted in the truth. For God is love.

What are you willing to sacrifice my friend to have truth as your own? Is there anything you are afraid to lose that hinders your pursuit of truth?

Only you can answer this.
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Messages In This Thread
RE: Q: do you, Christian, claim that God exists, rather than you believe that he exists? - by discipulus - February 25, 2014 at 6:35 am

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