(March 8, 2014 at 5:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: When it comes to Christianity the claim seems to be different then how Zeus can be not verified per own it's claims, because it introduces a thing that mediates the truth and imparts knowledge, the third of the trinity, the holy spirit. The holy spirit somehow can impart this knowledge of Christianity being true.
Doesn't matter if it is a different claim, it is still unsupported with anything that can be verified.
I don't think you actually know what the term 'verify' means. Using one's own experience to verify one's own experience is not verification. If it were, then we shouldn't be locking up schizophrenics in hospitals.
There is no method to verify that one's own 'spiritual' experience reflects some actual experience.
Quote:Some counter arguments I get is how can you know a sequence of words are divinely inspired by a feeling. How do you know?
And this is the crux of the matter. You seem to be implying that this counter argument falls short. Breaking news...it doesn't.
Quote:Anyways, it seems the spiritual force of holy spirit can impart this knowledge somehow according to Christianity.
No it doesn't. What it actually seems, is that many Christians CLAIM that an unprovable, unfalsifiable, supernatural being imparts knowledge. But this is a nonstarter, because the supernatural itself is unsupported by evidenced and unfalsifiable.
The hurdles that have to be cleared to even approach the probability that a personal deity that can magically impart knowledge to humans, are monumental, to say the least.
Quote:We can make a general argument that there exists a spiritual force that can make us know words are inspired or revealed by God.
If you want to call bare assertions, unsupported by evidence, an argument, have at it.
Quote:Muslims seem not to emphasize on experiencing with the a spiritual force to know the truth of Quran but try to talk objectively, since, the Quran has nothing similar to it, it's therefore divine since none of humanity could bring a Chapter like it's own chapters.[/quote}
So they claim.
[quote]Personally I find as a result, saying, we require empirical type evidence or some sort of philosophical proof aside from what these two religions have brought forth to not be rewarding in bringing us anywhere.
Yes, we know. That's because you would rather believe what makes you feel good, instead of believing what is actually supported be demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument. Neither of which you have, which is why you continue to tell us why it is so unimportant for your beliefs.
Quote:A problem has to be shown in the means of proof they offer or we can bypass that and just bring about problems within in the holy book or teachings of the religions to show it's not true.
Theists have both of these things going against them.
Personal experience is insufficient evidence to convince others, except the gullible. ALL religious texts have internal contradiction, external contradictions, historical and scientific errors, etc.
Quote:The next issue I want to get at is what I find to be a middle ground. While skepticism is healthy, I think accepting spirituality is also healthy along side of it.
You will never convince me that believing something for bad reasons is healthy.
Quote:Just because we are skeptical of religious claims of stories and claims of divine authorities, it doesn't take away the possibility of the human nature being given spiritual realities and ways of knowing these realities.
Please:
Provide demonstrable evidence that there are 'spiritual realities'. I have yet to even hear a coherent definition to define 'spiritual'.
That humans have the ability to know 'spiritual realities' exist.
Quote:A metaphor I find applicable is the tree of life. In Quran, there is talk about the cursed tree and talk about the blessed tree. These are metaphors to our spiritual realm nature with our actions and growth. How we grow blessed towards the light or cursed towards evil and darkness.
The fact that some profound sounding passages are found in religious texts, does not add a bit of credibility to them. They either stand or fall on their own merit.
Quote:it can be said that knowledge of these things can still enrich one's life.
Yes, beliefs that make someone feel all 'warm and fuzzy' can have positive effects on some individuals.
I'd rather believe what is true, or at least likely to be true.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
