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WLC free will and omniscience
#57
RE: WLC free will and omniscience
(April 3, 2014 at 1:14 pm)rasetsu Wrote:
(April 1, 2014 at 2:27 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Two things: free will and free agency

You have no free will. You are a machine that acts as it has to act. This isn't anything to do with religion.

You are a free agent to act as your will dictates.

This is semantic nonsense. The relevant standard is the counterfactual, that you "could have done otherwise" (that P or not-P). You've defined us as not having free will, that we could not have done otherwise (not (not-P or P), it is not the case that we could do P or not-P). Then, you simply change the label of the thing (could have done otherwise) to agency, and "magically" assert that it is free. It isn't; you've just changed the name. Changing the name doesn't change the properties of the thing.


Omniscience and Free Will

1. At time T, I could do P or not-P (free will / free agency)
2. God knows at T-1, P or not-P
3. It is necessary at T-1 that P or not-P
3a. Assume at T-1, God knows not-P
i) At T-1, it is necessarily the case that not-P
ii) if it is necessarily the case at T-1, it is necessarily the case at T {that not-P}
iii) if it is necessarily the case at T that not-P, then Premise 1 is false; contradiction.
3b. Assume at T-1, God knows P
i-iii) similarly to 3a, results in a contradiction with #1.
4. this entails not (#1 and #2) (both can't be simultaneously true)
5. Assume #2
5a. not (#1 and #2) -> not (#1 and true) -> not (false [#1] and true)
Conclusion: If God is omniscient, I am not free {could do (P or not-P)}


You're changing the label, I'm not. You possibly don't get what I'm saying. I'm sorry I don't know the source of the terminology. Suffice to say, it's neither personal nor theological in origin.

What I choose is determined by my will. What I will is determined by my character and desires. What my character and desires are is determined by my experiences and genetic makeup.

This is my will which is not 'free' to act outside of it's nature.

I am free to act as my will dictates, within reason. If I choose to do something by the process dictated by my genetics and experience, then I'm pretty much free to act without any outside influence restricting my actions. This is free agency.

I am a free agent but I don't have free will.

(April 3, 2014 at 2:50 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: From this human's perspective, you're conflating free will with the illusion of free will, fr0d0.

How so? I hold that there is no free will, but there is free agency.
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Messages In This Thread
WLC free will and omniscience - by tor - March 31, 2014 at 8:45 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by professor - March 31, 2014 at 8:56 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by ShaMan - March 31, 2014 at 9:00 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Ryantology - March 31, 2014 at 9:13 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by popeyespappy - March 31, 2014 at 9:06 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by professor - March 31, 2014 at 9:07 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by ShaMan - March 31, 2014 at 9:09 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by professor - March 31, 2014 at 9:17 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by ShaMan - March 31, 2014 at 9:20 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Ryantology - March 31, 2014 at 11:05 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by RobbyPants - April 4, 2014 at 8:44 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by professor - March 31, 2014 at 9:27 pm
WLC free will and omniscience - by Rampant.A.I. - March 31, 2014 at 10:39 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by fr0d0 - April 1, 2014 at 2:27 am
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by tor - April 1, 2014 at 7:50 am
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by fr0d0 - April 1, 2014 at 12:57 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by MindForgedManacle - April 4, 2014 at 12:17 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by fr0d0 - April 4, 2014 at 8:02 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Tonus - April 7, 2014 at 9:36 am
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Angrboda - April 3, 2014 at 1:14 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by fr0d0 - April 3, 2014 at 3:42 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by archangle - April 1, 2014 at 8:40 am
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Tonus - April 1, 2014 at 9:07 am
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by FreeTony - April 1, 2014 at 9:21 am
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by tor - April 1, 2014 at 9:25 am
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Ryantology - April 1, 2014 at 4:24 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by tor - April 1, 2014 at 4:57 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by fr0d0 - April 1, 2014 at 5:38 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by truthBtold - April 1, 2014 at 5:44 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Ryantology - April 1, 2014 at 5:58 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by tor - April 1, 2014 at 6:10 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by fr0d0 - April 1, 2014 at 7:48 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by truthBtold - April 1, 2014 at 6:51 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by fr0d0 - April 1, 2014 at 8:22 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by tor - April 1, 2014 at 8:24 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by fr0d0 - April 1, 2014 at 8:29 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by tor - April 1, 2014 at 8:44 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Tonus - April 2, 2014 at 9:18 am
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Rayaan - April 1, 2014 at 10:16 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by truthBtold - April 1, 2014 at 7:52 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by fr0d0 - April 1, 2014 at 8:57 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by professor - April 1, 2014 at 8:58 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by truthBtold - April 1, 2014 at 9:29 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by professor - April 1, 2014 at 9:38 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by truthBtold - April 1, 2014 at 9:42 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Whateverist - April 4, 2014 at 11:34 am
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Upside Down Dog - April 3, 2014 at 10:55 am
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by fr0d0 - April 3, 2014 at 12:21 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Upside Down Dog - April 3, 2014 at 12:58 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by fr0d0 - April 3, 2014 at 2:20 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Jackalope - April 3, 2014 at 2:50 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Neo-Scholastic - April 3, 2014 at 11:10 am
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Upside Down Dog - April 3, 2014 at 11:12 am
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Neo-Scholastic - April 3, 2014 at 12:49 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Paraselene - April 3, 2014 at 12:53 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by fr0d0 - April 3, 2014 at 12:50 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Neo-Scholastic - April 3, 2014 at 6:36 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by ShaMan - April 3, 2014 at 2:26 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by tor - April 3, 2014 at 2:50 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by fr0d0 - April 3, 2014 at 7:46 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Neo-Scholastic - April 4, 2014 at 11:03 am
WLC free will and omniscience - by Rampant.A.I. - April 4, 2014 at 12:01 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Tonus - April 4, 2014 at 12:22 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by fr0d0 - April 5, 2014 at 8:57 am
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by fr0d0 - April 5, 2014 at 6:54 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by coldwx - April 5, 2014 at 2:50 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by truthBtold - April 5, 2014 at 3:56 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by fr0d0 - April 6, 2014 at 4:48 am
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by MindForgedManacle - April 6, 2014 at 10:06 am
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by fr0d0 - April 6, 2014 at 2:47 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by archangle - April 6, 2014 at 7:52 pm
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by fr0d0 - April 7, 2014 at 10:07 am
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by Tonus - April 7, 2014 at 10:16 am
RE: WLC free will and omniscience - by fr0d0 - April 7, 2014 at 10:37 am

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