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Omniscience and free will are unconciliable
June 26, 2014 at 9:23 pm
(This post was last modified: June 26, 2014 at 9:24 pm by LogicOrDie.)
One of the most absurdities that theists shamelessly affirm, is that though God knows everything that is going to happen in our lives before we live it, we still have the choice to do what we want without God intervention. Well let's submit this to a close logicak examination.
God is omniscient : thus there is nothing He doesn't know
He knows everything about anyone's life before it was ever lived.
Let's take a example : Someone will be raised in a muslim family. He won't accept the divinity of Jesus and he will commit murder, then rape a young girl, and after being involved in a consequent robbery, he will get arrested and be put to death at his 28. Of course, according to the scriptures, he's doomed to go to hell.
But didn't God know that it will happen ?
Sure He did. If it didn't happen, God's mistaken which is impossible.
But since it happend, didn't that mean that God predestined this guy to this very life ? Sure. If not, God wouldn't be aware of what is going to happen and will have to wait til this man come to life and then follow his deeds step by step without knowing anything before. That would be more fair, but in the same time God will be ignorant which is impossible.
So the only logical conclusion to be drawn is : God predestines us so He's it not to judge us.
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RE: Omniscience and free will are unconciliable
June 26, 2014 at 9:46 pm
(This post was last modified: June 26, 2014 at 9:48 pm by vorlon13.)
Crap, I hate math, and here I am making a GD math post;
Pi has an infinite number of digits, and there is (apparently) no pattern and no repeating.
Forever.
Does God know all the digits of pi ? Well, he can't, contemplating them would take an infinite amount of time, and he would be unavailable for anything else.
-but-
God doesn't need to know all the digits of pi. He just has to know the formula.
So, someone might be, by analogy, programmed with free will, so to speak, and for all intents and purposes have it, but should God desire, he could 'run the program' and then know all about you, even before you do.
And I think I screwed that up.
Nevermind . . .
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RE: Omniscience and free will are unconciliable
June 26, 2014 at 9:57 pm
You mentioned in your intro are a "new" atheist.
Is it same to assume that you were exposed to lots of religious family and/or friends growing up.
Then one day someone said, " but god works in mysterious ways" , bla bla bla.
And that was the final straw, so to speak, the veil of deception was finally removed from your mind.
You rose up, pepperoni pizza in hand and shouted:
Enough!, "Enough with the bullshit already!", followed wisely by " mum, pass the coke please."
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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RE: Omniscience and free will are unconciliable
June 27, 2014 at 12:20 am
Theists will basically just say that God gave us free will, so he cannot know (in advance) what we will do because for him to do so would mean determinism is true, and the type of free will they use here (libertarian free will) is not one with which such a determinism is compatible.
"The reason things will never get better is because people keep electing these rich cocksuckers who don't give a shit about you."
-George Carlin
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RE: Omniscience and free will are unconciliable
June 27, 2014 at 1:20 pm
(June 26, 2014 at 9:23 pm)LogicOrDie Wrote: One of the most absurdities that theists shamelessly affirm, is that though God knows everything that is going to happen in our lives before we live it, we still have the choice to do what we want without God intervention. Well let's submit this to a close logicak examination.
Yeah, I just had a guy tell me something similar online last night. He said that "God plans the details of our life in great detail, yet, we're still responsible". I wanted to get some clarification from him, but he has yet to respond.
This is actually the first I've talked to a person that's hinted at accepting that God controls all of our stimuli like we're in a Skinner-box, and I'm wondering if that's what he really means or if he's really bad at wording his stance. More importantly, I asked him if we had any ability to go against God's will, or if God's "meticulous planning" will happen with 100% accuracy.
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RE: Omniscience and free will are unconciliable
June 27, 2014 at 1:47 pm
Meh, doesn't really matter whether or not god knows, or is micromanaging anything. All that matters is that it is possible. If precognition is possible, choice is not. If choice is possible, precognition is not. They're mutually exclusive claims.
I could recommend some good sci-fi.....ah, Mr. Dick.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Omniscience and free will are unconciliable
June 27, 2014 at 1:51 pm
(June 27, 2014 at 12:20 am)MindForgedManacle Wrote: Theists will basically just say that God gave us free will, so he cannot know (in advance) what we will do because for him to do so would mean determinism is true, and the type of free will they use here (libertarian free will) is not one with which such a determinism is compatible.
But if God exists in some realm beyond space-time and is not subject to contingency, why is his knowledge time-bound? It seems to me that such believers will trade off one of God's supposed attributes (omniscience) as part of some desperate gambit to absolve God of the monstrous conclusions Calvin came to. "Our God isn't a wicked, arbitrary tyrant. The damned must deserve their fates -- they just must!"
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RE: Omniscience and free will are unconciliable
June 27, 2014 at 3:13 pm
(June 26, 2014 at 9:46 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: Crap, I hate math, and here I am making a GD math post;
Pi has an infinite number of digits, and there is (apparently) no pattern and no repeating.
Forever.
Does God know all the digits of pi ? Well, he can't, contemplating them would take an infinite amount of time, and he would be unavailable for anything else.
-but-
God doesn't need to know all the digits of pi. He just has to know the formula.
So, someone might be, by analogy, programmed with free will, so to speak, and for all intents and purposes have it, but should God desire, he could 'run the program' and then know all about you, even before you do.
And I think I screwed that up.
Nevermind . . .
Assuming that God exists, one could argue that an all powerful God could read infinite chain of numbers and watch over us individually simultaneously with no effort
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RE: Omniscience and free will are unconciliable
June 27, 2014 at 3:55 pm
(June 27, 2014 at 1:51 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: But if God exists in some realm beyond space-time and is not subject to contingency, why is his knowledge time-bound? That's one of god's other powers: omniconvenience.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Omniscience and free will are unconciliable
June 27, 2014 at 4:20 pm
(This post was last modified: June 27, 2014 at 4:20 pm by Thumpalumpacus.)
I agree with the OP; the two are logically incompatible.
Additionally, the idea of Hell or other punishment for not worshipping God is also incompatible with free will, insofar as it coerces a choice. Any Chritsitian defending free will who believes in Hell must also vote to acquit the armed robber, on the grounds that his victim surrendered his money of his own volition.
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