Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: January 28, 2025, 9:06 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Non-religious Theism
#13
RE: Non-religious Theism
(April 23, 2014 at 12:22 am)whateverist Wrote:
(April 22, 2014 at 11:18 pm)Metalogos Wrote: As far as my claim that there is wisdom and order in the universe, I am speaking of the myriad manifestations of nature that show intelligence, chief amongst those would be you, I'm sure, and a methodical arrangement of elements that result in harmonious entities like human beings, ants, and snowflakes.

Sure, sure. The universe is awe inspiring. Without a doubt. But when you observe how everything fits so well together, you're not seeing evidence of intention. You're seeing something structurally essential about the nature of reality itself.

Did you see that meme -was it in this thread?- of a puddle exclaiming how well its hole fit it .. almost as though it had been designed with him in mind. Like the puddle, I think you are imagining a tailor where really what we're seeing is a non-arbitrary, inborn fit between the parts of a whole.

(April 22, 2014 at 11:18 pm)Metalogos Wrote: Please, I am not arguing here for intelligent design. I'm simply saying there is intelligence and exquisite order in the universe.

Absolutely. Both. But the second need not be an effect of the first.

I get your puddle and the hole point but in fact, puddles don't think about their holes or talk with them but human beings do think about their bodies and their world and they do wonder how they came to get such a marvelous instrument with which to exist in and such a beautiful place in which to live. When they do have such thoughts, I think it is quite natural for them to think of a creator being because they themselves possess the ability and will to create.
Human beings create with intentions and goals and so to imagine a creator being that also has/had intentions and goals is only natural. When humans began to notice how the world worked, i.e., through the mechanism of cause and effect, they naturally began to think that if one cause brings about an effect and then that in turn becomes a cause to bring about another consecutive effect, there must be, naturally,a first cause for all of this to come about.
At the time people began to think this way, the gods had been in their imaginations for countless generations. We modern people tend to imagine that our ancient forebears had a consciousness just as we do but that only their customs and clothes and technologies were different but this is a mistake. Their consciousness was filled much more with an awareness of what many people now call the spiritual world and we know this from looking at the architecture they created, their way they buried their dead, their art, and many, many more artifact they leave us with impressions from the past.
As time passed, the human consciousness lost more and more of its connection with the spiritual world and became more and more focussed on the material world. The link to the gods was eventually broken and there are many stories in various cultures that comment on this momentous event in the evolution of human consciousness. The one that gives a very clear picture to me is the story in the Norse creation myth, the Kalevala, wherein the bridge to Asgard was broken, the place where all the gods dwelt, from Odin down to Loki, and the humans could no longer commingle with them which caused great sadness in both worlds.
I mention this change in human consciousness only to remind you/us that we cannot assume that human beings at a much earlier time in our evolution were incapable of seeing or understanding things that we in this time of what we might call a period of spiritual blindness are unable to perceive. We have the ability now to peer into the most obscure reaches of the material world and we certainly think that we are far superior to our ancestors for all our advances in technology and accumulated knowledge but we mostly forget that we have made those advances and gains at the loss of our former connection to the spiritual world.
We cannot and will not return to the past but there will perhaps come a time in the future when human beings, wielding their hard won abilities of clearly perceiving and understanding the material world, will reconnect their consciousness with the spiritual one. If such a time indeed comes about the spiritual knowledge humans at that time will have will be gained through the same kind of clear thinking and perception we of this age possess with regards to the physical world.
I'm sure you will say 'Don't hold your breath!" and actually, I breathe much easier having a sense that human beings of every age have and probably always will tend to have a sense of connection to something divine, to something eternal and perfect.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Non-religious Theism - by Metalogos - April 20, 2014 at 8:31 am
RE: Non-religious Theism - by Cato - April 20, 2014 at 9:01 am
RE: Non-religious Theism - by Metalogos - April 21, 2014 at 10:33 am
RE: Non-religious Theism - by downbeatplumb - April 21, 2014 at 11:57 am
RE: Non-religious Theism - by Metalogos - April 21, 2014 at 7:48 pm
RE: Non-religious Theism - by Faith No More - April 21, 2014 at 9:17 pm
RE: Non-religious Theism - by Metalogos - April 22, 2014 at 7:30 am
RE: Non-religious Theism - by Cato - April 22, 2014 at 11:20 am
RE: Non-religious Theism - by Metalogos - April 22, 2014 at 11:18 pm
RE: Non-religious Theism - by Whateverist - April 23, 2014 at 12:22 am
RE: Non-religious Theism - by Metalogos - April 24, 2014 at 2:23 am
RE: Non-religious Theism - by Whateverist - April 24, 2014 at 3:12 am
RE: Non-religious Theism - by Metalogos - April 24, 2014 at 7:19 am
RE: Non-religious Theism - by Whateverist - April 24, 2014 at 8:13 pm
RE: Non-religious Theism - by Metalogos - April 24, 2014 at 10:05 am
RE: Non-religious Theism - by Faith No More - April 23, 2014 at 3:55 pm
RE: Non-religious Theism - by ThePinsir - April 22, 2014 at 10:14 am
RE: Non-religious Theism - by archangle - April 25, 2014 at 7:23 pm
RE: Non-religious Theism - by MindForgedManacle - April 27, 2014 at 12:31 am

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Even if theism is a failure, it's still superior to atheism R00tKiT 491 56406 December 25, 2022 at 7:21 pm
Last Post: LinuxGal
  Did Jesus want to create a poli-theism religion? Eclectic 83 9647 December 18, 2022 at 7:54 am
Last Post: LinuxGal
  Can you be a "Non religious muslim"? Woah0 31 3345 August 22, 2022 at 8:22 pm
Last Post: BrianSoddingBoru4
  Ignosticism, Theism, or Gnostic Atheism vulcanlogician 55 6295 February 1, 2022 at 9:23 pm
Last Post: emjay
  Persistent Non-Symbolic Experiences Ahriman 0 639 August 18, 2021 at 4:05 pm
Last Post: Ahriman
  Questions about the European renaissance and religion to non believers Quill01 6 936 January 31, 2021 at 7:16 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  God as a non-creator Fake Messiah 13 2264 January 21, 2020 at 8:36 am
Last Post: Fake Messiah
  Being can come from non-being Alex K 55 9399 January 15, 2020 at 10:40 pm
Last Post: Jehanne
  Being cannot come from Non-being Otangelo 147 18445 January 7, 2020 at 7:08 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Rational Theism Silver 17 6234 May 2, 2018 at 9:34 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger



Users browsing this thread: 3 Guest(s)