(May 13, 2014 at 1:46 pm)Tonus Wrote:(May 13, 2014 at 12:46 pm)Godschild Wrote:
That implies that everyone who professes to be a non-believer is really a believer who rejects Christ out of self-interest. But again, if a person believes that the greatest reward is only through Christ, then self-interest would drive them towards Christ, not away from him. Therefore, it isn't self-interest; it's genuine lack of belief.
No it doesn't, not believing is rejecting period and that rejection comes through self interest, self interest is the first sin committed. Disobeying God whether you recognize Him or not is sin through self interest. To obey is to sacrifice what one desires for doing God's will. It's God's desire that everyone be saved and those who are not save is because they make a decision that they desire, that desire is out side God's desire.
GC Wrote:
Tonus Wrote:I said that to live this life is to risk hell, unless you believe the philosophy of "once saved, always saved." Paul taught that Christians struggle against the weakness of the flesh, that salvation was not easy to achieve. Therefore it requires effort to stay on the path to salvation.
Once save always saved is not a philosophy, it has merit through scripture, though I do not believe in the definition most attribute to it. Paul never taught salvation was hard to achieve, if he had done that he would believed works saves and he definitely taught against that. Paul taught salvation was through a choice to believe in and follow Christ. What path of salvation, are you speaking in favor of works, something the Bible does not teach.
Tonus Wrote:But it is also not a sacrifice. To call it a sacrifice implies that you are giving up something valuable to help another. I get the impression that you feel that your life, lived in accordance with god's plan and Christ's teachings, is the best possible way to live it and not a burden. So in exchange for living a rewarding life, you get to live forever in heaven with god. Where is the sacrifice?
Salvation is a sacrifice, as Paul said, one must die to self and receive Christ as the Lord of their life, one switches Lords, from self to Christ. Could it be those who walked away from Christianity were not interested in a new Lord but keep the old one.
Sacrifice means you give up your interest in favor of the interest of God and others. To be a Christian is just that and you can't be a Christian without salvation.
I never said that being a Christian did not come with burdens, until you live in service of Christ for others you probably can't understand the burdens Christians can have. Just because there are great rewards being a Christian doesn't mean there are not sacrifices, you need to see the whole of the picture.
GC Wrote:Self interest through denial, you have no absolute proof that salvation through Christ isn't real.
Tonus Wrote:I have no proof that it is, either. And that's the most logical approach. If I were to live my life based on the things I could not prove, I would have to worship thousands of gods, maybe millions of them. "Self interest through denial" is why I also do not worship the god of Islam or the gods of Olympus or any other god. You do not worship Brahma-- is it safe to assume that you do so driven by self interest through denial?
Logic what does logical proof have to do with the spiritual, the spiritual abounds in logic just not the logical proof you demand, and I find it very illogical to demand proof from God.
I do not worship other gods because the One I do has proven Himself to me, not because I demanded it, but because He rewarded my faith in Him. I did not ask Him to, it's a promised gift.
Again thanks for the good conversation.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.