A Levite and his concubine

[abaris]

I'm sure I agree with you on most of what is moral and immoral. Murder, rape, stealing lying, cheating, adultery, unkindness, etc. are all immoral--all the usual stuff. I believe we should love every person and treat them accordingly. These have all been passed down through scripture and have been enforced by society as well. Western civilization's morality is based upon standards which have been set for us in the bible.

Leave the scripture part out and we have an agreement. All the above mentioned existed before scripture as can be seen in my previous post, where I posted a link to Egyptian moral standards. In fact, it should come naturally to any decent human being. Also I would say, "respect" instead of "love". I don't honestly believe that anyone can love everyone.

From what you and others say here I assume that you base your morality on how you perceive the results to effect others. So you look at a situation and determine what you think would be right or wrong in that situation. Or maybe you possess the morality that your parents or your teachers handed down to you, or that society instilled in you.

Not the teachers, but surely my parents. Not with a religious connotation to be precise, although they were catholics, but religion didn't play a large role in our family. My grandfathers were both jewish, but secular and not in any way religious. And you're right, I look at a situation. The most important thing is to judge how ones actions infringe on the rights and wellbeing of others. Or how anybody's actions infringe on the rights and wellbeing of others.

What I've been trying to get someone to tell me is why God or me or anybody should be forced to abide by your standards of morality.

OK, and that's the point where we part ways. As you yourself said, there are some standards. Rape, murder, and so on ...

If someone can help himself by killing someone else, why shouldn't he? Many say it's necessary for a well-functioning society. Well, the European settlers killed countless native Americans and ran them off their land and corralled them on reservations, and our society has functioned quite well over the years. Bad for them, but good for us. Of course I thing it was wrong, but not because society told me it was.

Two issues here. First I never said it was wrong to kill in self defense. I was talking about murder and genocide. Second, the European settlers drove the native population away because they wanted their land and their ressources. That's not self defense and you youself say, it's not fine and dandy. Again, society isn't the moral authority here, it's infringing on the rights and wellbeing of others.

Society tells me that abortion, fornication, divorce are okay, but I don't agree. I think they are immoral.

The keyword here is consent. If you want to talk about what you call "fornication", it's consensual. Divorce is consensual. You didn't mention gay couples, but again, it's a consensual decision. It's nobody else's business. Abortion is the woman's choice and there are numerous threads talking about that issue in depth. I certainly won't go into detail here, but this is the part where we most certainly have a strong disagreement based on your believes and my disbelief.