A Levite and his concubine

[Lek]

This does not automatically confer authority. How do you justify asserting that this is how god gained his supposed authority?

Since when was an order, made potentially without authority, a means by which authority can be derived? And what thought process did god use to "set the standards" there?

Okay. You don't agree that God creating us gives him the right to set the standards for our condiuct. I believe that our creator is the source of ultimate morality for everyone. Do you believe that there are ultimate moral standards that apply to every person? If you do then where did it come from? If it's just your opinion, then why do you hold God to your standards?

But when we get to atrocities that are condoned- or indeed, performed- by god, you just shrug them off and say it's different because god's doing them. So how can your morality be at all consistent if there are such unjustified exceptions?

As I keep saying over and over--God's actions were just, based on our sins. Of course, you disagree with the concept, but this is what the bible says and as a christian this is what I believe.

No, they're not. We don't have slavery, for one. For another, it's illegal to kill someone of another religion, or no religion at all. To the extent that western morality has taken anything from the bible- and one could easily remind you that the bible took all of its morality from earlier, secular texts- it has improved it.

Again, during the old testament times people were under God's judgement. The new testament tells christians to treat their slaves with love and respect. I don't know, but I assume that these were voluntary contracted slaves. The bible doesn't say that we're allowed to kill some of another or no religion.

Which is, as I've said, the wrong question to ask, because morality is not derived from the authority of the person speaking on it. If it was, then you believe n relativistic morality that can change on a dime; all your high minded talk about being repulsed by actions in the bible is all a matter of coincidence and has nothing to do with the act itself.

Stop asking the wrong question, and start asking the right one: nobody can be forced to abide by any standard of morality. If I so choose I can reject your god's moral commandments with ease; does that mean that god's morality is flawed too? That it carries no weight and should be discarded? That's what you're trying to intimate about our morality, right? But it equally applies to yours; your accusations cut both ways.

Instead of answering my question, you keep telling me to stop asking the wrong question? You've gone on and on about reasons to adopt certain moral standards, but why should someone else agree with you if they reason differently? Why should God abide by your standards other that they are logical to you?

Because he wouldn't be able to rationally justify his killing in a way that wouldn't also apply to him. Social morality isn't concerned with the whims of the individual, it needs to be consistently applied to everyone regardless of who they are, or else it's just a preferential series of rules, not a moral system.

I'm sure many murderers would justify their actions and "survival of the fittest" and would agree that it applies to themselves as well.

Can you justify those beliefs in a non-question begging or special pleading manner, without recourse to unproven assertions?

I justify these beliefs because I get them from the bible. Do you believe that abortion, fornication and divorce are okay? If so, is it because they meet your standards of not hurting anybody? If so, can you back up your belief with concrete supporting evidence?[/quote]