Challenge regarding Christian morality

[emilynghiem]

This is a byproduct of another thread, but I think the point is worth its own thread, if not its own TV show.

Can anyone name a single Christian moral teaching (moral meaning helpful for the wellbeing of individuals and society) that is not reasonably obvious to any well balanced atheist?

If you are a Christian and the answer is no, what does that tell you about the relevance of Christianity as a moral guide?

The things I have the hardest time explaining to nonChristians:
1. the faith in govt authority even when you are being screwed up the backside,
why is it important to obey authority for obedience sake. this is baffling and appears to be enabling the most corrupt destructive abuses of govt.

But people absolutely need to be able to have this power of influence
by RESPECTING govt even when and especially when seeking reform or correction.
It is more powerful to come from a position of respect and not rejection.

2. how does forgiveness help when it appears to enable wrongdoing to continue. how does this empower anyone to make corrections when it appears the opposite.

3. and related to that, how can demons and spiritual healing be real. if it was real, and can cure all these ills as claimed, wouldn't this already be proven by science by now.

these three are all related to how forgiveness works, but if people don't get it in one area, I mentioned three different areas where the same concept draws blank stares.

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Apparently you can't win this grace through good acts either; so really, morality doesn't enter into it.

Actually, you can, and that's part and parcel to their belief system; however, they don't like it when those things are called "acts". This all stems from some parts of the Bible saying salvation comes from grace alone and others hinting that it takes some action on part of the believer. You reconcile that by declaring those necessary actions to "not be acts", because reasons.

Basically, this means that "acts" are anything some naive, wannabe Christian would try to get into heaven; however, repentance, Baptism, and a desire to be Christ-like totally aren't acts. Again, because reasons. They will absolutely tell you that repentance is required for salvation, and that you can't just behave all willy nilly to get into Heaven (the baptism part is kind of up for debate, but they all do agree it's super important, even if it's not necessary). This "makes sense" in that they don't like the idea of Hitler abusing his get-out-of-jail-free card to get into heaven, yet, they still can't let go of their saved-by-grace-alone rhetoric which allows such abuses.

TL;DR: the stock apologetic on this can basically be explained by the principle of explosion (the Bible posits both A and !A) and doublespeak. Saying "you don't get into heaven by acts, but you must be repentant" is absolutely doublespeak.

Hi RobbyPants
1. I focus on the act/choice of asking help with forgiveness as the determining factor
2. I find the issue is salvation is a process of both forgiving and reconciling in spirit, and also manifesting this in action as a result of being saved, even though it takes consequent steps to fully realize; so the arguments people are having are where to draw the line between being saved in spirit and fully manifesting this in practice
3. where this makes a difference, the faith of secular gentiles who require proof they can see first relies on seeing works so this demonstrates that Christian faith accomplishes what it promises. so the faith of believers is enough based on grace and faith alone, but the faith of secular gentiles is where the works serve as proof so those people who need this can accept that this is valid for realizing peace and justice