Atheism -"No God, "religion has no validity"

[emilynghiem]

The universe may have always existed though, and as such would require no cause.

I don't understand that claim. I know that Christians make that claim about their god, but it seems arbitrary.

Suppose we discovered that a hamburger had always existed: two all-beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, all on a sesame seed bun. Wouldn't you want an explanation? Wouldn't you want to know what had caused that to always exist?

I feel the same way about Jehovah. And, if the universe is eternal, then I feel that way about the universe.

Let me clarify: I'm not saying that eternal gods, universes, and hamburgers necessarily have causes. I don't know that they do. I think plenty of non-eternal things (tiny things) are uncaused.

But I also think that when theists claim that everything---except their god---needs a cause, they are being arbitrary and self-serving.

I don't know of any reason to believe that eternal things are uncaused.

HI wiploc
I see the human conscience as questioning things if it is meant to find some answer.
and if it already has the answer/information needed as good enough, it won't seek more. the tricky part is sometimes like a zen riddle, where just because you pose the question on one thing, it doesn't mean that's the real reason for asking. sometimes the process of answering that question leads to some other understanding that voids the original question as not the real point.

this happens to me all the time. I seek a solution to a question or problem and by the time I find things that help me, they may not be at all what I thought I needed or wanted. but in the search, I was led to places, people or resources that helped me anyway.

in the case of God and the universe, the truth is we can never really prove or disprove one way or the other because none of us was physically there at the time these supposedly started. so it is all faith based anyway. our reasons for either questioning, rejecting or being satisfied with the answers we have depend on what works for us.
and if something isn't good enough, we will search further. but again the answers we find may not be to the questions we thought were important or we were asking.

happens to me so often, i expect this as the norm.

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Yeah, things get a bit weird when you talk about eternal things. For something to have proceeded an eternal universe, it must have caused the universe "giving" it an eternal past, or perhaps putting it in a state where it mimics a universe that actually has had an eternal past. Like a saved game state.

I'm not sure how else it could work.

the way I would explain the eternal truth/universe
it would be like the script in life was already written, it just exists period.
the plot points and characters in the beginning are already set up to
work with the events in the middle and the end; these are co-influencing
and correlated and not before/after cause/effect but designed as an
integrated plot where the ending influences why the beginning happened and
vice versa.

and then we as players acting out the script move linearly
from scene to scene, and we go through suspension of disbelief,
just like going through a movie you already know is written and how it goes.
but when you are following the scenes, you still feel suspense or surprise
at the unexpected jumps. we still go through the ups and downs to enjoy the
roller coaster ride and journey through life, but have faith there is a happy ending.

so from our viewpoint the cause and effect is linear timewise,
but that's not how the script was written where all characters
and interactions were designed holistically to balance out and tell a complete story.