"Time does not exist outside of the universe, so nothing can predate the universe."

[emilynghiem]

So, I'm watching a video by the Messianic Maniac on youtube:




and the apologist who he's debunking is saying that since the forces of nature created the universe, it predates the universe, and TMM says "Time does not exist outside of the universe, so nothing can predate the universe." is a contradictory statement. Can someone please elaborate? Thx a bunch!

Dear @IanHulett

1. as for if "nature created the universe" or the " universe always existed and had no creation point" whichever is the ultimate starting point, then the SOURCE/God is defined as that. So if the source of nature/universe has a starting point or source then THAT becomes the new absolute source of all thing.

if you keep repeating this, then God/universe is infinite with no beginning and no end. where whatever "exists before or after that" is then called the higher source that God represents.

this is, of course, symbolic and cannot be proven or disproven:

2. we can theorize till the end of time (we can even reach 100% consensus on what we think happened) and that doesn't prove it
or disprove it one way or the other

We *weren't there* when things were first created or saw that they 'always existed' so this is always faith-based.

God's existence or nonexistence, how the universe was created if it was created, can NEITHER be proven nor disproven.

there is always a possibility it happened another way if it did happen.

we are not ominiscient infallible or infinite in our knowledge
to "know all things" so we cannot know these things for sure.

likewise if you take God to be time that existed before all this,
we can't prove or disprove the existence of that definition either.

3. the main purpose i see to comparing these different timelines or ways of seeing or setting it up hypothetically:
this tells us if someone has a bias toward a tangible starting point or God as a personal figure or creator/author of life
or if someone is biased toward an impersonal view of the universe as always self-existing

this makes a difference when working with people culturally and personally so we can understand how we look at life and humanity, how we look at cause and effect.

we aren't all going to agree on how it was set up.

but we can understand each person's way or group's way of how they see the timeline and then this affects how they relate to us and others in life.

[for example if people see humanity as starting off pure, then getting corrupted, and then RETURNING to the original pure state
that is going to change how we approach correcting people or
problems in life
compared with someone who see things as starting off flawed
and the point is to introduce something new to fix it from an
external change not an internal one.]

so this whole business of time and timelines is to help us understand how people operate who THINK that way. if you never meet anyone who THINKS this way, and it doesn't help you, then use a different way that does. we don't know either way, so each person uses what works for them. and that's why we have so many versions denominations and branches when ALL of these ways attempt to describe the same process in life from different starting points and framework.