How Muslims believed earth was spherical long before anybody mentions it.

[The Grand Nudger]

Actually, in every civilization I see scientists (pretty rare ones) appear from within the certain empire, to find out awesome things, just so the whole knowledge gets lost in wars and plunder, for your information it was burnt, rather than learnt from, take the mongol invasions to both Muslim and European lands, or check the crusaders.

How would you know what knowledge was gained if it were lost? I think you need to rigorously investigate the mechanics of that statement. If the overarching comment is that invaders burn this or that - I agree, they do. They don't seem to have managed to burn everything, either by accident or by design. If they had, we wouldn't know that they did. That knowledge both of the earths general shape (and even some very accurate measurements) existed in 200bc is, apparently, not something that we lost, because here we are discussing it, eh?

Matter in fact, the books and knowledge came from spain, not the Catholic invasions ; because the crusaders did view the Muslim science as evil and "unholy", check that history a little more. Though science theft mainly, took place when spain fell under the inquisitions.

Are we talking the ren? Of course they came from spain, they were latin translations of arabic translations of greek works. As I mentioned a few posts ago. It's amusing isn't it, how translating something from one language to another can seperate people on two sides of a line? Here we are, talking about the translations made of works on the periphery of what we now call geography (terms we use today were actually invented by Eros, btw)- and you find yourself standing on the arabic side of that line...vociferously defending it;s integrity for absolutely no reason whatsoever......given that you and I don't seem to have any disagreement on the subject at hand.

Check the chinese crossbow & ancient rockets,

Cho-ko-nu..fun fact, I got a bug one day to build one. So I went to the lowes and got what I'd need to do so, at least a modern version. The action is brilliant, but the strength of the draw is pathetic (as noted in the source material I had, mentioning that the smaller darts carried less force but were poison tipped and fielded against mass cavalry). Some portion of that device is myth - I've held one in my hands made of superior materials to a level of craftsmanship that those who built them then couldn't possibly have attained (due, if nothing else, to the tools and materials available to me, now). It's an oddity, they were capable of constructing it, for reasons I could expound upon at length - it never became mainline equipment for the chinese. I want to build a mangonel, full size...someday - but it would cost so much. But, ultimately, what do cho-ko-nus have to do with the discussion we were having?

then see how ideas actually do travel on a very, very, very low velocity.
Check the huge difference now, between superpowers & developing countries, see the huge gap that is there.

The cho ko nu was an idea ahead of it's time that didn't travel at all, it didn't even take within the empire that conceived of it. Rockets did travel, fast and hard - and man did it have an impact. Didn't "travel" by conquest though.

Imagine a world, where internet didn't exist, half of the world isn't even discovered, history proved that the only competition was in war equipment.

I think you put too much truck in the gear, and not enough in the logistics backbone. Rome (again to use a prominent example) wasn;t actually all that innovative in warfighting equipment (as noted..they were unabashed coopters) - what they were good at was the logistics of supporting the people who used the equipment. Still..this all seems diversionary.

So the competition thing, in some ages yes, requiring some types of sciences yes (like medicine & chemistry), but you know for certain that comparing models & this "university atmosphere" didn't actually exist in the ancient world until very late stages.

What "university atmosphere" are you talking about? I explained to you why we find greek in arabic, and arabic in latin (and then of course latin in all of the works that came from it and are now part of "the west"). It's not an issue of any university, or even competition really. The works were translated, for whatever reason. I could expound upon all of the reasons why they might have wanted to do it, mentioned that it would have happened even if they didn''t, and show no end of examples as to this happening everywhere, everywhen...-but ultimatel that;s speculation. All that I can say I know, is that the works were translated and transported. Why do you have a problem with this?

Matter in fact, no. I truly feel away & far from that history to even bother. Well, the son doesn't carry the sin of his father, that's my concept about it.

Matter of fact no...what?

So, that story is not actually their property or marvels creation. One of the evilest ideas humans can think about, is expansion using war. Well, they never learn. Heck even ancient Egyptians tried it, I mean weren't that the same story, every stupid race walked this earth told ?

Eventually, Rhythm I talk above race. I think you shall also understand me in that context.

That may be one of "the evilist ideas", I would (and have) avoided any such declarations in that vein myself because I feel that they are unproductive to the discussion. Perhaps the expansion of the arabic state and their interactions during this expansion was evil....I don't know, I don't think so....but if that's how you choose to view it, okay. I'm not sure how race got in, the umma wasn't a monolithic ethnic block?

Actually, you still think in this mentality. That's why you can't understand me.

I have an alternative explanation for that. We speak different first languages, and you're a bit of a loon.

The Middle East's mess has nothing to do with religion,

Oh come now........nothing? But so what...you are all over the fucking place man. I've been trying to have a conversation with you about why it's unsurprising to find that the people who wrote the quran might have believed that the earth was a sphere. It's also possible, of course, that they thought it up themselves. The influence of greek works on the quran though...seems to suggest the former, rather than the latter. We don;t actually know what the pre-umma beliefs regarding the shape of the earth were......that was all destroyed. Their own pagan sources, I suppose, might have been seen as more of a threat to the emergent state religion than some foreign mishmash (which happened to contain some good guesses about some quasi-scientific stuff)?

everybody knows it comes down to cash & nationalism ; every person knows it.

Tell that to the religious extremists?

The Middle East is witnessing a fight between many newly-spawning nationalities, it's enough that the Libyan flag actually changed, ISIS is trying to form a state, In Yemen the Huthies are also on their way to form a new nationality...etc.

Yeah, nothing to do with religion in any of that..............

That's the main reason you see people getting bombed. Hey check the history of world war 2, which was a conflict between arising nationalities -despite the kingdom of japan being an empire it didn't matter-, I guess you'll change your mind at that time, from Europe to Japan itself passing by Egypt where the British actually fought Ze Germans.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be changing my mind too? Neither the US, nor Germany, nor Japan were doing any emerging with WW2. (Japan had done it's "emerging" a bit earlier, and they were the johhny come lately's, in a western pov).

Sadly, the context required it.

Believe me in my head, I see it as human x & human y . Maybe that's a thought you had beforehand ?


The relevance was the context, and a small reminder. As I remind with such a crime, I do also talk about Muslim crimes Though, all of it because I have a concept that people here (especially like you) must know : as a Muslim, I must get over myself and rise above categorizing into this and that, I'm not god to judge who's good and who's evil, though I can only refer to the wrongs I see.
So yes, I sometimes mention stuff with stinky details. But sadly it's how our planet is.

It's not that the details are stinky...it's that you seem to have flown off to some other duscussion (or many) when you failed to defend your claims regarding the quran, some bullshit historical narrative you think the west is foisting (or believes in) and the origins of spherical earth claims (or their accuracy). That's what smells like shit, to me.

But the way you formed your words, mmmm no I don't agree.

With....what?

Because the context required that, dear Rhythm. Let me give you an example :

When the Umayyads started to get weaker, the Abassid order started to rise. As the Umayyads committed massacres, and became so corrupted, the Abassid order actually did wage a counter campaign, slaughtering thousands of the Umayyads and their supporter...etc.

Do you see a common theme up there ? The word Umayyad for example ? or Abassid ?

That's, they call context. Read it now :

When the started to get weaker, the order started to rise. As the committed massacres, and became so corrupted, the order actually did wage a counter campaign, slaughtering thousands of the and their supporter...etc.

Do you see ?
I hope you saw..

What should I see there, whats the relevance to the discussion we were having - or, if you prefer...tell me what discussion we are having now..if not that one?