Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: November 30, 2024, 5:26 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Physics distinguishing future from past
#3
RE: Physics distinguishing future from past
Surgenator already said it, in classical physics, the arrow of time arises as a statistical phenomenon. The classical laws of physics are time reversal invariant. If you look at a system of masses moving according to newtonian laws, and play it backwards, you will again see a system of masses moving according to the same newtonian laws, but with different initial conditions. Incidentally, Surge, it is exactly the choice of inital conditions which tells you whether to use retarded or advanced potentials (since they are both perfectly fine Greens functions of the wave equations).

My favourite example is as follows: imagine an otherwise empty space with only two masses which attract each other with newtonian gravity for example. They will have some mutual kepler orbit. If you let run time backwards in this system, you will not be able to tell that it's backwards. There is no arrow of time.

If you add one more mass, the situation already changes: if you start with a constellation of three gravitationally bound masses and let the system run, it can happen that one of the masses gets a lot of kinetic energy by accident and is ejected from the system. If you look at this film backwards, you will see a particle coming from infinity and hitting a two body system at just the right energy to get integrated in it.

You'd see that and say: what are the odds!

And that's exactly the point, as soon as you have a more complicated system, the arrow of time is defined by going from less to more likely states. And that's what entropy is.
The analogy in electromagnetism: if you calculate the emissions of a radio antenna using advanced potentials, you'll get a radio programme coming in from the infinities of space and hitting the antenna at just the right point and moment to correspond to the electrons moving in the antenna. A very unlikely scenario.

If you have physics going on depending on a time parameter, future is the direction of increasing total entropy. If you have a minimum of entropy at some point and it goes up in both directions, you have two universes in which time runs the opposite way, which are connected at their temporal origins. Cool, huh.

Now, there are two more things that boggle my mind: first of all, quantum mechanical measurements in the copenhagen interpretation break this invariance as far as I understand it, because the wave function collapse happens only when going to the future. In the MWI, there is no problem afaik, it's again perfectly invariant under time reversal.

Secondly, the weak interactions have a term which violates time reversal, but it's extremely weak and can't possibly be the source of the arrow of time now. However, it could have something to do with the reason why a low entropy state was created.

(March 18, 2015 at 1:41 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote:
(March 18, 2015 at 1:27 pm)Surgenator Wrote: 1) 2nd law of thermodynamics.
2) Retarded potential (<-- not a joke, that is what it is actually called)
"Retarded potential" is my middle name. Tongue
I'll look it up and see if I understand it... thanks. Smile

The retarded potential is given as that solution of maxwells equations where a movement of charges produces a wave which moves away as time progresses. The advanced potential is the opposite: a wave comes in and cancels with the movement of the charges. The retarded potentials are needed to describe the usual situation of an antenna emitting something.

(March 18, 2015 at 1:19 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote: I was wondering if this relates to causality somehow? If the universe is completely deterministic, would there be a way to distinguish future from past or cause from effect?
To answer that question, yes, also via entropy
Quote:I'm thinking about the "first cause" argument for God. Some Gnostics believed that God was a "unity". What would entropy and thermodynamics suggest as the starting point - a single bit?
The first cause argument for God is nonsense anyway. You'd first have to do their work for them and come up with a proper definition of God which allows you to say something about its thermodynamics Smile
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

Reply



Messages In This Thread
RE: Physics distinguishing future from past - by Alex K - March 18, 2015 at 1:41 pm
RE: Physics distinguishing future from past - by vorlon13 - March 18, 2015 at 2:53 pm
RE: Physics distinguishing future from past - by Alex K - March 18, 2015 at 3:47 pm
RE: Physics distinguishing future from past - by vorlon13 - March 18, 2015 at 7:45 pm
RE: Physics distinguishing future from past - by Alex K - March 20, 2015 at 6:21 am
RE: Physics distinguishing future from past - by Cyberman - March 20, 2015 at 7:11 am
RE: Physics distinguishing future from past - by Alex K - March 20, 2015 at 7:27 am

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Physics Puzzle onlinebiker 32 2913 July 21, 2020 at 4:07 am
Last Post: zebo-the-fat
  Physics questions ignoramus 21 2427 May 9, 2019 at 6:27 pm
Last Post: Anomalocaris
  Quantum Physics Craziness! LadyForCamus 19 2614 October 12, 2017 at 2:26 pm
Last Post: Jehanne
  The Physics of Guinness thesummerqueen 23 8287 September 2, 2017 at 8:25 am
Last Post: LastPoet
  Does Physics now have a complete description of Nature? Jehanne 32 5328 April 10, 2017 at 11:14 am
Last Post: dyresand
  I have a layman's theory about quantum physics "spookiness" Won2blv 15 3205 March 5, 2017 at 11:15 am
Last Post: Won2blv
  SMASH Theory Claims to Solve 5 Major Questions of Physics AFTT47 0 1330 February 20, 2017 at 10:14 pm
Last Post: AFTT47
  Past Time Travel: What Paradox? maestroanth 24 5214 February 17, 2017 at 1:02 am
Last Post: The Valkyrie
  Physics Nobel 2016 Alex K 8 2189 October 4, 2016 at 11:33 am
Last Post: Jackalope
  Physics questions about light bennyboy 10 2876 September 20, 2016 at 9:26 pm
Last Post: bennyboy



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)