(July 14, 2015 at 2:09 pm)robvalue Wrote: I don't say so to boast, but to prove a point: I was totally unindoctrainated as a child. Not raised "atheist", just not any beliefs forced on me at all. I was 5 years old when I was first presented with people trying to convince me of this crap. My critical thinking was developed enough even then to understand this is nonsense. Randy couldn't have convinced me even then. He would have been faced with a child asking him why an adult believes in fairy stories.
I was raised in a very Christian household. But I do remember sitting in church during a sermon concerning Genesis and wondering how adults could believe any of it (it happened before kindergarten but how much before I don't know). It's a question that returned to my mind over and over. But no one tried to convince me. They simply presented god as a given. And they didn't talk of learning to believe in god, though they did pray to continue to believe in him (imagine a group of physicists praying to continue to believe in The Theory of Relativity despite the opposition of the world) which was not very reassuring.
When I confessed my unbelief rather than swear to a lie at confirmation, no one suggested rational proofs of god. They suggested I examine my heart. Or said to try very hard to believe. Or said they'd pray for me. Or said to behave as if I believed in hopes I would believe (ignoring the last 15 years of my life). I did try out of desire to please my parent (who I love) to believe. I really did. Now I can't figure out why even the desire to please would make me want to.
You see, there are no successful rational arguments for god. Either you accept because you accept what you are taught, or determinedly set about believing for whatever personal reasons. Virtually no one comes to faith in god by rational argument.
In fairness to my parents, no one yelled at me, threatened me, deprived me of college money, grounded me, or any other punishment. They were simply bewildered and hurt.
We have raised our children without indoctrination. We've let grandparents have a go at it, but discussed the girls questions about the books and videos their grandparents sent. We let them go off with friends to Christian youth groups. And what we have is little atheists who ask would be indoctrinating friends troubling questions.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.