(July 14, 2015 at 3:06 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

(July 13, 2015 at 11:35 pm)Pizza Wrote: Give an argument that there is in fact a god that does " suspend laws." You can't just assume Christianity is true.

I'm not going to repeat myself anymore.

Have you stopped to consider that the resurrection of Jesus IS evidence that there is a God? Or that coming to the conclusion that the resurrection makes sense is a step toward faith in God?

Because that assumes the very thing you where to set out to support, "there was a bodily resurrection of Jesus." Your premises assume Christian theism to support Christian theism. I don't understand what you don't understand about that. You can't even engage in basic reasoning about explanations without begging the question. I want good reasons to believe your explanation of the "five facts" is likely true, meaning it doesn't circularly appeal to the facts it's trying to explain as evidence for itself and as evidence of the "five facts." EX of question begging:
There was likely an empty tomb because Jesus resurrected, and Jesus likely resurrected because there was an empty tomb.

As I and others have repeated other simpler explanations are, no matter how unlikely, still more likely than resurrection given the facts about biology. The strength of your case is too capricious to be taken seriously.
Is there anything left say when you ignore science and think history can strongly support claims that go against hard sciences.

(July 14, 2015 at 3:06 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Have you stopped to consider that the resurrection of Jesus IS evidence that there is a God? Or that coming to the conclusion that the resurrection makes sense is a step toward faith in God?

Until the resurrection of Jesus is proven, it is evidence of nothing.  I have no idea what you mean by the resurrection "making sense."  But coming to baseless conclusions, does seem to be the hallmark of faith in god.

Memo totally nailed it, I was going to write the same thing myself but found he'd already done it

I doubt any Christian believes in Christianity because of rationalisations like these. They are attempts to make an irrational belief look rational with pseudo-logic and pseudo-science. And because they don't believe them for these reasons, it makes no difference how many times we rip them to shreds.

I came with a way of paraphrasing all this: they are strawmanning themselves. They are putting forward the position that these arguments are sufficient to base belief on, knowing that it isn't true. Then when they get torn down, the real reasons stay nice and intact because they haven't been put on display.

You're also dead right Nemo, this "technique" just assumes the conclusion must be true, and that there must be a way of logically drawing a line between it and reality. So any argument that does so must be valid. That is the essence of the problem.

I don't say so to boast, but to prove a point: I was totally unindoctrainated as a child. Not raised "atheist", just not any beliefs forced on me at all. I was 5 years old when I was first presented with people trying to convince me of this crap. My critical thinking was developed enough even then to understand this is nonsense. Randy couldn't have convinced me even then. He would have been faced with a child asking him why an adult believes in fairy stories.

If I'd have been indoctrinated, I probably would have believed all these stories. At least until I got older. I hope I would still have found my way out.

(July 14, 2015 at 2:09 pm)robvalue Wrote: I don't say so to boast, but to prove a point: I was totally unindoctrainated as a child. Not raised "atheist", just not any beliefs forced on me at all. I was 5 years old when I was first presented with people trying to convince me of this crap. My critical thinking was developed enough even then to understand this is nonsense. Randy couldn't have convinced me even then. He would have been faced with a child asking him why an adult believes in fairy stories.

I was raised in a very Christian household.  But I do remember sitting in church during a sermon concerning Genesis and wondering how adults could believe any of it (it happened before kindergarten but how much before I don't know). It's a question that returned to my mind over and over. But no one tried to convince me.  They simply presented god as a given.  And they didn't talk of learning to believe in god, though they did pray to continue to believe in him (imagine a group of physicists praying to continue to believe in The Theory of Relativity despite the opposition of the world) which was not very reassuring.

When I confessed my unbelief rather than swear to a lie at confirmation, no one suggested rational proofs of god.  They suggested I examine my heart.  Or said to try very hard to believe.   Or said they'd pray for me. Or said to behave as if I believed in hopes I would believe (ignoring the last 15 years of my life).  I did try out of desire to please my parent (who I love) to believe.  I really did.  Now I can't figure out why even the desire to please would make me want to.

You see, there are no successful rational arguments for god.  Either you accept because you accept what you are taught, or determinedly set about believing for whatever personal reasons.  Virtually no one comes to faith in god by rational argument.

In fairness to my parents, no one yelled at me, threatened me, deprived me of college money, grounded me, or any other punishment.  They were simply bewildered and hurt.

We have raised our children without indoctrination.  We've let grandparents have a go at it, but discussed the girls questions about the books and videos their grandparents sent.  We let them go off with friends to Christian youth groups.  And what we have is little atheists who ask would be indoctrinating friends troubling questions.

I'm sorry you had to go through that Jenny. I think some people are too rational to be duped, although if the indoctrination is ruthless enough anyone can probably be broken. I am glad your parents didn't react as badly as they could have done.

I wasn't an amazing child at 5, I was simply lucky to have a clear head. I'm not trying to claim superiority over anyone, even those who believe even today. Many much cleverer than me I'm sure have been conned into it because their minds have been poisoned by those responsible for their most basic education. It may well be done with good intentions, although I do wonder how much of it is the fear of having to explain it to a clear headed person rather than force it into a vulnerable young mind.

If there's one thing I despise the most about religion at a basic level I think it's indoctrination. It is what keeps religion going, possibly the only thing.

So at this point in this thread, it seems appropriate to post this:

Sooo, I'm Nemo for good now? Cool.

Looks like I really do roll so hard motherfuckers wanna find me