Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: May 11, 2024, 12:09 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Paul reshaping the church
#45
RE: Paul reshaping the church
(March 31, 2016 at 9:11 pm)Aractus Wrote:
(March 31, 2016 at 4:53 pm)athrock Wrote: I realize that you a from Protestant stock, but neither the Catholic Church nor any of the Orthodox Churches would agree with you (unless the latter did so in an attempt to weaken Peter's claim of universal supremacy...but that is for another thread).

Well they don't have to agree. Read One God One Lord by Larry Hurtado . It's considered an essential textbook by the majority of Biblical Colleges today, Hurtado is considered an expert, and it says first century Judaism was highly malleable - and by extension early Christianity. A view shared by many other scholars such as Bart Ehrman.

The evidence you're presenting suffers from clear selection-bias. You want to reject all the Gnostic texts because they were written outside the first century. That's the claim and the reasoning behind why Orthodox/Catholics/Protestants reject their validity about what they have to say about first century events. Therefore, if those can't be considered, neither can second century documents by church fathers that discuss first-century events. Without that you have zero evidence of who the head of the church was from 50AD onwards. Against Heresies is written more than a century after Peter and Paul died.

Of course I'm guilty of selection bias...because the Early Church was. If someone could not prove his apostolic succession, he was not considered a legitimate leader in the Church. And the same went for early writings, also.

This is NOT a problem. Atheists SCREAM that the gospels were written "late" and therefore are untrustworthy. So, you'll forgive me if I hold the gnostic gospels to the same (or higher) standard when it comes to insisting on early documents only.

Quote:All branches of Christianity that existed in the second century, whether Gnostic or Orthodox, claimed apostolic succession.

Indeed. Augustine noted the problem when he wrote, "...the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 4:5 [A.D. 397]).
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 28, 2016 at 3:41 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Thumpalumpacus - March 28, 2016 at 5:01 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - March 28, 2016 at 10:26 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 29, 2016 at 1:05 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - March 29, 2016 at 1:24 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Wyrd of Gawd - March 29, 2016 at 3:27 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - March 29, 2016 at 2:06 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Wyrd of Gawd - March 29, 2016 at 6:08 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Drich - March 28, 2016 at 11:19 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by JuliaL - March 28, 2016 at 11:21 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Minimalist - March 28, 2016 at 12:12 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by JuliaL - March 28, 2016 at 12:20 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Minimalist - March 28, 2016 at 12:25 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 28, 2016 at 9:26 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by The Atheist - March 29, 2016 at 1:56 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Minimalist - March 28, 2016 at 9:31 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 29, 2016 at 12:36 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Minimalist - March 29, 2016 at 2:05 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Foxaèr - March 29, 2016 at 2:01 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Minimalist - March 29, 2016 at 2:02 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by The Atheist - March 29, 2016 at 2:15 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Minimalist - March 31, 2016 at 1:20 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Foxaèr - March 29, 2016 at 2:07 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 29, 2016 at 2:27 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Wyrd of Gawd - March 29, 2016 at 3:33 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Foxaèr - March 29, 2016 at 2:36 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 29, 2016 at 3:13 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by The Atheist - March 29, 2016 at 11:28 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 29, 2016 at 10:05 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - March 30, 2016 at 2:55 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 30, 2016 at 7:20 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - March 31, 2016 at 4:53 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 31, 2016 at 9:11 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - April 1, 2016 at 2:13 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - April 1, 2016 at 10:28 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - April 2, 2016 at 11:37 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - April 1, 2016 at 2:29 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - April 1, 2016 at 3:29 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - March 30, 2016 at 3:13 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - March 29, 2016 at 1:55 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Wyrd of Gawd - March 29, 2016 at 3:21 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Drich - March 29, 2016 at 9:12 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 29, 2016 at 10:01 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Drich - March 31, 2016 at 2:50 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by robvalue - March 30, 2016 at 6:35 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by John V - March 30, 2016 at 5:27 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Minimalist - March 31, 2016 at 1:34 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by brewer - March 31, 2016 at 7:31 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Minimalist - March 31, 2016 at 8:22 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - April 1, 2016 at 2:31 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - April 2, 2016 at 12:53 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - April 2, 2016 at 11:57 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - April 2, 2016 at 12:03 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Hmmm? - April 2, 2016 at 9:18 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - April 2, 2016 at 11:04 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Hmmm? - April 2, 2016 at 11:30 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Hmmm? - April 2, 2016 at 11:37 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Minimalist - April 2, 2016 at 11:37 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - April 2, 2016 at 9:36 pm

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Why are Paul's writings in the Bible? Fake Messiah 122 6809 October 8, 2023 at 11:28 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Church sex abuse: Thousands of paedophiles in French Church zebo-the-fat 8 1275 October 7, 2021 at 1:49 am
Last Post: Rev. Rye
  Paul's Writings Underpin Western Thought SteveII 232 17584 August 6, 2018 at 2:29 pm
Last Post: Minimalist
  Dating Paul's Writings JairCrawford 33 3091 July 30, 2018 at 7:19 am
Last Post: Jehanne
  Paul's "persecution" of the early Christians? Jehanne 134 14978 February 22, 2018 at 8:13 pm
Last Post: Wyrd of Gawd
  Paul's 500 witnesses. Jehanne 131 38749 May 14, 2017 at 4:39 pm
Last Post: Minimalist
  Church of England vs Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints vorlon13 13 4165 April 3, 2017 at 1:48 pm
Last Post: vorlon13
  Saint Paul and temporal lobe epilepsy. Jehanne 1 1285 July 17, 2016 at 2:52 pm
Last Post: RobertE
  Paul the Apostle, seems kind of a liar. Authentic letters of Paul Coreni 10 4622 June 26, 2015 at 4:03 am
Last Post: Coreni
  Did "james son of zebedee" ever meet Paul the Apostle? Coreni 6 4421 June 25, 2015 at 1:03 pm
Last Post: Metis



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)