I thought I'd reply to a thread someone else started here, because I found his post provided opportunity to explain why many people end up at forums like these, searching mostly in vain for answers.
Here is his original post:
Now, to break down this post a bit I'll quote snippets, starting here (and while my responses are technically directed at him, they're really directed at anyone like him who comes here):
"I remain committed to being open minded and considering all sides of any issue."
If this is true, good. But coming to an atheist forum to find a credible “theist” source strongly suggests that you're already barking up the wrong tree. What makes you think an atheist forum is going to have answers? Atheists are fools, as the Scriptures say: "The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good." (Psalm 14:1)
What good is any source an atheist suggests to you going to do? Clearly it hasn't worked for them. In fact, they are nearly certain to provide you with materials that will only lead you further astray or waste your time. Now, perhaps you've come hoping to find a credible person here, but that was not the gist I took from your post.
"Honestly, that what has led to my deconversion - considering sources and facts which were hidden/forbidden/shouted down in my world for decades. To that end, I find a lot on the atheist/agnostic/none position which I find very intellectually satisfying and honest."
I'd be interested to know what sources and facts have been hidden, forbidden, or shouted down that were powerful enough to lead to any kind of "deconversion." That aside, however, I'd like to know how you've determined any of those positions to be honest, because frankly there is no way for anyone to determine the honesty of anyone else apart from personally experienced knowledge.
For instance, say there is someone who claims the Earth is 65 billion years old. Someone else asserts that the Earth is only 6,000 years old. Both have studied the materials, have actually done the testing, and are even similarly educated. Whom do you believe, without conducting the experiments yourself? How do you know one of them isn't lying or mistaken?
Are you going to say "Well, the majority of scientists have concluded..." well, that just isn't a valid argument. The majority of scientists once called heliocentric theory heresy. I understand Galileo spent the rest of his life in prison for advancing it.
My point is, who are you to determine what is true or false? By what authority do you operate, other than your own? That of others? Do you refer to and rely upon "the experts”? If history has proven anything, it's that there is no man on earth who can be relied upon. There may be people who have proven themselves correct on occasion, or even often, but who in history has ever been perfectly reliable? Can you provide a single instance?
How then, if you can't rely upon yourself for information that you haven’t personally verified, can you rely upon random people on the internet? Talk about barking up the wrong tree!
So, what's the solution? God, of course, and by God I mean the Lord Jesus Christ. That sounds like such an inane thing to most people, and probably at least a little sanctimonious. But that's only because people don't believe—if they did, they would be filled with hope and excitement (not that anyone can get there immediately necessarily). It's actually a wonderful thing to have the certainty about things that have baffled mankind since the dawn of existence simply because you know in your bones, from the Lord, truth from falsehood (and by the way, I’m not discounting the usefulness of evidence, which the Lord does provide in many situations, but evidence can be manipulated or even fabricated in service of an agenda).
"Everyone has their bias, so no one is truly down the middle, but in particular I enjoy reading Shermer, Ehrman, Harris, etc - all the ones you might expect."
I'm not well-read in atheist literature, but I'm familiar with Sam Harris. This is the same man who has justified vile dishonesty in service of his thoroughly wicked political ideals: https://nypost.com/2022/08/21/the-lefts-...rump-bias/
From this man's mouth have come forth these words as well: “Where is heaven exactly, given that we have multiple telescopes up there beaming back information?”
What pure idiocy! And you listen to this man? Consider how foolish you were to ever lend an ear to someone so completely in darkness, and reconsider more carefully looking to men for information (and know that it was the Lord Who revealed Sam Harris to be a liar and a fool).
And perhaps you see a contradiction here. After all, I'm a man offering you counsel, aren't I? A fair point! You can't look to me for answers, either. I may be able to plant a seed, but only God can provide the growth (and truly, I can't even plant a seed except by His grace).
Really, the only advice that is worth giving is to look to the Lord Himself and not to any man for answers or salvation. He's the only One Who can provide either.
But what about those who claim that they've sought God directly and failed to find Him, through prayer or whatever other means? There is a Scripture that might put that into perspective:
"You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions." (James 4:3)
Many seek God, but for all kinds of wrong reasons: seeking wealth, power (even through knowledge), security; any kind of selfish end, that's usually why people seek God. But what is God looking for?
"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." (Psalm 51:17)
He wants us to approach him with a broken spirit and contrite heart, because we're sorry for our evil deeds and don't want to continue our lives in sin, without Him. Can you (or any of you) say that you've done this? And remember, you must be sincere to the point of being willing to die, even by crucifixion: “And He said to all, “If anyone would come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me.” (Luke 9:23)
Oh, many of you will say "of course"! But how can you be so sure? After all, the Scriptures say this:
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)
The prophet Jeremiah also wrote "You will seek Me and find Me, when you seek Me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)
So the answer is simple: if you haven't found God, it's because you haven't sought Him with all your heart; it's because you've sought after Him with evil motives. So you wind up in a place like this, where wicked people speak all kinds of evil about the Lord without fear (on both sides, I should add). To all of you I say this: look at everything around you falling apart. If you can't see the widespread evil and imminent destruction of the world as we know it, then you're blind. If you can see it, then you need to fear—and remember Who is in charge.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (Proverbs 9:10). Time to get wise.
Here is his original post:
(May 25, 2022 at 11:19 am)TheJefe817 Wrote: As I go through the process of continually reexamining by beliefs (largely now former beliefs), I remain committed to being open minded and considering all sides of any issue. Honestly, that what has led to my deconversion - considering sources and facts which were hidden/forbidden/shouted down in my world for decades. To that end, I find a lot on the atheist/agnostic/none position which I find very intellectually satisfying and honest. Everyone has their bias, so no one is truly down the middle, but in particular I enjoy reading Shermer, Ehrman, Harris, etc - all the ones you might expect.
So my question is - does anyone have suggetions on where to look on the theist side for something honest? I say that because the sources I am pointed toward by theists tend to feel like sales jobs treading over well-worn arguments (Kalaam, Pascal, gaps, etc) rather than true explorations. I'm getting suggested folks like WL Craig, Habermas, Strobel, Licona - and I just feel like they are all starting with their desired answer and backfilling. Are there others that might provide any satisfying thoughts?
Now, to break down this post a bit I'll quote snippets, starting here (and while my responses are technically directed at him, they're really directed at anyone like him who comes here):
"I remain committed to being open minded and considering all sides of any issue."
If this is true, good. But coming to an atheist forum to find a credible “theist” source strongly suggests that you're already barking up the wrong tree. What makes you think an atheist forum is going to have answers? Atheists are fools, as the Scriptures say: "The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good." (Psalm 14:1)
What good is any source an atheist suggests to you going to do? Clearly it hasn't worked for them. In fact, they are nearly certain to provide you with materials that will only lead you further astray or waste your time. Now, perhaps you've come hoping to find a credible person here, but that was not the gist I took from your post.
"Honestly, that what has led to my deconversion - considering sources and facts which were hidden/forbidden/shouted down in my world for decades. To that end, I find a lot on the atheist/agnostic/none position which I find very intellectually satisfying and honest."
I'd be interested to know what sources and facts have been hidden, forbidden, or shouted down that were powerful enough to lead to any kind of "deconversion." That aside, however, I'd like to know how you've determined any of those positions to be honest, because frankly there is no way for anyone to determine the honesty of anyone else apart from personally experienced knowledge.
For instance, say there is someone who claims the Earth is 65 billion years old. Someone else asserts that the Earth is only 6,000 years old. Both have studied the materials, have actually done the testing, and are even similarly educated. Whom do you believe, without conducting the experiments yourself? How do you know one of them isn't lying or mistaken?
Are you going to say "Well, the majority of scientists have concluded..." well, that just isn't a valid argument. The majority of scientists once called heliocentric theory heresy. I understand Galileo spent the rest of his life in prison for advancing it.
My point is, who are you to determine what is true or false? By what authority do you operate, other than your own? That of others? Do you refer to and rely upon "the experts”? If history has proven anything, it's that there is no man on earth who can be relied upon. There may be people who have proven themselves correct on occasion, or even often, but who in history has ever been perfectly reliable? Can you provide a single instance?
How then, if you can't rely upon yourself for information that you haven’t personally verified, can you rely upon random people on the internet? Talk about barking up the wrong tree!
So, what's the solution? God, of course, and by God I mean the Lord Jesus Christ. That sounds like such an inane thing to most people, and probably at least a little sanctimonious. But that's only because people don't believe—if they did, they would be filled with hope and excitement (not that anyone can get there immediately necessarily). It's actually a wonderful thing to have the certainty about things that have baffled mankind since the dawn of existence simply because you know in your bones, from the Lord, truth from falsehood (and by the way, I’m not discounting the usefulness of evidence, which the Lord does provide in many situations, but evidence can be manipulated or even fabricated in service of an agenda).
"Everyone has their bias, so no one is truly down the middle, but in particular I enjoy reading Shermer, Ehrman, Harris, etc - all the ones you might expect."
I'm not well-read in atheist literature, but I'm familiar with Sam Harris. This is the same man who has justified vile dishonesty in service of his thoroughly wicked political ideals: https://nypost.com/2022/08/21/the-lefts-...rump-bias/
From this man's mouth have come forth these words as well: “Where is heaven exactly, given that we have multiple telescopes up there beaming back information?”
What pure idiocy! And you listen to this man? Consider how foolish you were to ever lend an ear to someone so completely in darkness, and reconsider more carefully looking to men for information (and know that it was the Lord Who revealed Sam Harris to be a liar and a fool).
And perhaps you see a contradiction here. After all, I'm a man offering you counsel, aren't I? A fair point! You can't look to me for answers, either. I may be able to plant a seed, but only God can provide the growth (and truly, I can't even plant a seed except by His grace).
Really, the only advice that is worth giving is to look to the Lord Himself and not to any man for answers or salvation. He's the only One Who can provide either.
But what about those who claim that they've sought God directly and failed to find Him, through prayer or whatever other means? There is a Scripture that might put that into perspective:
"You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions." (James 4:3)
Many seek God, but for all kinds of wrong reasons: seeking wealth, power (even through knowledge), security; any kind of selfish end, that's usually why people seek God. But what is God looking for?
"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." (Psalm 51:17)
He wants us to approach him with a broken spirit and contrite heart, because we're sorry for our evil deeds and don't want to continue our lives in sin, without Him. Can you (or any of you) say that you've done this? And remember, you must be sincere to the point of being willing to die, even by crucifixion: “And He said to all, “If anyone would come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me.” (Luke 9:23)
Oh, many of you will say "of course"! But how can you be so sure? After all, the Scriptures say this:
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)
The prophet Jeremiah also wrote "You will seek Me and find Me, when you seek Me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)
So the answer is simple: if you haven't found God, it's because you haven't sought Him with all your heart; it's because you've sought after Him with evil motives. So you wind up in a place like this, where wicked people speak all kinds of evil about the Lord without fear (on both sides, I should add). To all of you I say this: look at everything around you falling apart. If you can't see the widespread evil and imminent destruction of the world as we know it, then you're blind. If you can see it, then you need to fear—and remember Who is in charge.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (Proverbs 9:10). Time to get wise.
