Is There a Point To Living a Moral Life?

[Mister Agenda]

Thanks to everyone for your... eh... Honest replies!

I particularly like yours "Fallen". I think you should be [back] on our side of the street!

And as far as my motives? They are also honorable.... and speaking of honesty, face it Maggy... I was considered a jerk by you, before you ever even laid those big brown eyes on me!

You weren't considered a jerk by me. You're always as good as your last post as far as I'm concerned, but it's hard not to notice how often your last post reveals you to be a jerk.

---

Most of you did answer the first question. And interestingly enough, society (or pack) seems to form "reactions" to actions perpetrated! So, if society broken down (total chaos) then for many of you, so would your moral compass. That's probably true for a lot of Christians too! But when we (Christians) are held to a higher source, society is not our standard to live by. 

 Everywhere, Christianity reflects the society in which it is found.

---

And generally speaking....we would die for basic moral values, and what is right.

Generally speaking, a tiny few of you would. And so would a tiny few of atheists. Some things are worth dying for, but not many.

---

But, I didn't really get the answer to the more important second question; Where is the line drawn?

Sure we can talk about moral matters in life or death situations that we would ALL fight side-by-side for! But what about the little things? The passing little lies, and cheats! The things we all take for granted.

We all have to draw our own lines, ronedee. That is inescapable. Even if you follow someone else's line, you're the one who has to decide that the line you're following is superior to the line you would draw yourself. If you need an authority figure to tell you to practice honesty consistently, that is your own moral deficiency speaking.

---

Jesus tells us, "If you are honest in small matters, you will be honest in big matters."

And Jesus more than anything else tells us about the evil of our "sins of omission"...aka "what we fail to do."

Personally, this is a slippery slope for me, and I'm sure for many! Some of these "omissions" are frustratingly in-grained. Only my deep reflections through Jesus' words and guidance am I able to root them out, and remedy them...in some form.

Reflectiveness in general is a good way to sort out one's morality.

---

How do you as "singularly moral" people able to avoid the [subtle] occurrences of...well... sin and injustice and lies? Or, is that below the bar of caring?

Thanks again everyone! I really enjoyed reading most of your replies! Ron

Unless Christians can actually be demonstrated to do a better job of towing the moral line, the fact that no one else is perfect at it either is of no relevance to the topic of being moral without God.

You're welcome. I appreciate your second post not being nearly as insulting as the first.

---

I would argue with good reason based on what we observe of the human situation on the ground that genuine compassion, altruism selflessness goes beyond your utilitarian view of naturally evolved mutual survival systems. It wouldn't explain why a soldier would jump on a grenade to save his squad mates for example. They're not genetically related to him, if they died and he survived that's no disadvantage to him personally. There was an example of this in the recent shootings in Kenya when someone drew the terrorists attention to himself so saving a group of children. They weren't his children so no good reason to care if they were shot and he himself survived.

You suppose that evolution 'knows' that man's squad mates weren't genetically related to him? You think evoluton 'knows' those children weren't his? We evolved under conditions (organization rarely above the clan level) where saving any human 'on your side' likely meant saving a blood relative, so there was no need to evolve a 'pause and calculate genetic relationship before acting' mechanism between the urge to act and the action. We did not evolve to only consider kinship when risking our lives to save someone, and arguably that has turned out to be a feature rather than a bug, in that it helps us extend the bonds of trust beyond narrow kinship circles.

---

It's the survival of the individual and their genes within the species not the species as a whole. Even Richard Dawkin's would disagree with you if that's what you're saying. A starving child in Africa does not negatively impact your own survival or the survival of our species in any way. If you wanted to you could say the weak are being weeded out and the stronger more resourceful populations thrive. I'm not saying that but you may as well if you don't believe God exists.

'Weak' is not the same thing as 'unfortunate'. Africans in themselves are one of the vastest human genetic resources on earth. We'll never know what we've lost letting so many die while we've stood by.
Of course, we have moral reason in addtion to inherited moral sentiment at our disposal, and we are by no means limited to what evolution has given us regarding morality. One axiom, like 'life is good but unneccesary suffering is bad' can take you a long way into a moral code. And it would be the naturalistic fallacy to use evolution as the measure of what is right and wrong.

---

Yeah! I do understand.

And (good) is all that is important to God, no matter what we percieve Him to be!

Personally? I feel the same way (as God) does. All that matters to me is that we can have a "good" relationship and "try" to understand each others methods and motives. That is the point of my questions!

I've never condemned any of you for not believing in God. What I have projected is the closed-mindedness, and persecution of those who love God.

I bolded the part where I fixed that for you.

---

As God's children, we are to love one another. And I do love each one of you! But I do hate the personal attacks for what our belief's are! Just because we are part of a religion does not make us inherently guilty by association..... especially since most of you know that our relationship with God is based on a "personal" one. We are not saved collectively, but individually. And we are well aware of religion's shortcomings. And most of us want to change that.

But....people organize religion, not God. I might love people, but I have little faith in them to do anything right. Like our govt for example!

Thanks for your thoughtful reply!

If only you could hate the personal attacks you make against us equally.

---

What do I have to answer to? The billions of other people on this planet, and the smaller group of those that I care about and want to be happy. The fact that you don't seem to see this as sufficient is the most telling thing of all.

You always read things [into] what I say that aren't there. Why have any conversation at all?

ASSume everything I say is from your dark, evil perspective and just go away.

That's exactly what you do with us. You couldn't even make an opening post without saying something ugly about us. If you can't follow your own advice, you should just go away.