Paul reshaping the church

[athrock]

The OT prophets had a limited vision of how their prophecies would be fulfilled; the later prophets had more clarity about the Messiah than the earlier ones, for example. The Israelites did not conceive of a New Covenant that would include the Gentiles.

No, clearly the prophecy was wrong. Just like almost all other prophecies in the Bible. Just like Jesus's prophecy that the Son of Man would come in the same lifetime as the disciples:

Matthew 16:28 "I tell you the truth, there are some standing here who will not experience death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Matthew 16 was fulfilled at the Transfiguration in Matthew 17. So, the rest of this is moot:

---

There's no two ways about it, his prophecy was wrong. You don't test a prophecy by changing it when it doesn't happen to suit what actually happens, you test it by taking its direct claim. Now you might say "these are prophecies for later on" - the Bible explicitly says such prophecies are forbidden, and prophets are expected to prophecy future events within their own lifetimes:

Deuteronomy 18:22 whenever a prophet speaks in my name and the prediction is not fulfilled, then I have not spoken it; the prophet has presumed to speak it, so you need not fear him.”

Jeremiah 28:8-9 From earliest times, the prophets who preceded you and me invariably prophesied war, disaster, and plagues against many countries and great kingdoms. So if a prophet prophesied peace and prosperity, it was only known that the Lord truly sent him when what he prophesied came true.”

So by the Bible's own standards the prophecies I've mentioned are invalid. They didn't come to pass. To Bible explicitly tells us not to listen to people like Jeremiah and Jesus if their prophecies fail!

---

Perhaps you could share some of these "contradictions"?

Jesus taught to follow the Law of Moses and to play nice with the Romans (render to Caesar what is his) see Matt 5:17-18, Mark 12:17. On the other hand we have Paul saying "don't worry about the Law" and "fuck the Romans and their ways". You have Jesus doing things publicly and advocating for public preaching, but Paul and co. transform the church into a secretive organisation that meets in people's houses and doesn't have public displays of their faith - other than their anti-Roman behaviours that attract attention from authorities.

I just did a quick search of several translations online, and I can't find "fuck the Romans"...what translation was that from?  

As for becoming "secretive"...well, yeah, persecutions, arrests and beheadings will tend to do that. But for all that, Aractus, Christianity still overran the mighty Roman Empire within three centuries. So, your argument is a bit weak here.

So, when someone comes along from outside these lines of Apostolic Succession and teaching strange doctrines, they were rejected because they were not teaching those things which were handed on (Gr. tradere - "tradition") of the Apostles.

None of them in the second century had direct apostolic succession. All of the important early church characters/leaders were either presumed dead by 70AD, or are not known to have lived after it. Jesus and John the Baptist. Stephen and James, Simeon, James the Just, Peter, Paul, etc.

I just showed you the apostolic succession...perhaps you don't understand what the term means?

Jesus > John > Polycarp > Irenaeus > Hippolytus

Irenaeus and Hippolytus are second-century men with direct apostolic succession.

Paul by the way, while he did know the family of Jesus, never met him himself. Neither did our other major NT author, Luke.

Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus. Luke did not meet Jesus personally, but he had opportunity to interview many of those who had. These undoubtedly include Peter (in Rome), Mary and John (in Ephesus?) and others.

There is also progression of mythology in the New Testament. For example, Mark and Paul don't know about the bodily resurrection of Jesus and nor do they seem to know just how evil Judas Iscariot is.

In Mark 16, Mark has an angel say, "He is risen." Why write that if Jesus was still in the tomb? You are badly mistaken here.

True they mention celestial ascension, but that's far from a bodily resurrection. There are Old Testament characters said to have been raised to the celestial realm, it's not unique. At the same time the character of Judas Iscariot is made progressively more sinister: Paul never bothers mentioning Judas at all. Mark mentions him as an apostle, but doesn't bother portraying him as evil incarnate. Instead it simply says that he has decided to betray Jesus into the hands of the chief priests who were "delighted by this and offered him money". Then at the Last Supper Jesus mentions to his disciples that one will betray him, but he doesn't say who. In Mark, Judas never dies at the end.

In Matthew and Luke Judas is now much more sinister. Matthew claims that he solicits money from the chief priests to betray Jesus, and then at the Last supper he has the audacity to say "surely not I, Lord" to which Jesus outs him in front of the other disciples. Luke on the other hand claims that Satan entered Judas who then went to chief priests to betray Jesus and they were "delighted" as in Mark. And also as in Mark, the Last Supper goes on without any mention of who will betray him. Interestingly out of the three accounts, only Matthew claims that Judas was the one to solicit money, and only Luke claims that he was possessed by Satan. John then goes further still by claiming that Judas Iscariot is a thief. A claim the synoptic writers never bothered to make. And meanwhile, despite making numerous references to Jesus's death, Paul doesn't seem to think Judas is important enough to even mention.

So you can see clearly the progression of mythology surrounding Jesus's death and supposed resurrection. And this is just the growth/expansion of mythology from c.50AD to 90AD.

Mark was writing a brief gospel; there are many details he does not include.  So, big whoop.

Paul did not write a biography of Jesus. So, why mention Judas at all? 

As for the other differences, these small discrepancies suggest that the authors were independently attesting to a common story. If they were in lock-step agreement, skeptics would be screaming "COLLUSION!" at the top of their lungs.