(March 6, 2018 at 1:11 pm)polymath257 Wrote:(March 6, 2018 at 1:08 pm)emjay Wrote: I just can't get to that in my thinking... not saying I think you're wrong or anything... I just can't get there. Maybe I'm just thinking about it wrong... probably... I just can't see anything, at all, that implies the necessity for it. That for instance a PZ would still 'scream' if it was in 'pain'... pain would still be represented neurally and the physical manifestations of it would still be detected and processed by other PZ's... no different physically than with phenomenal consciousness.
Exactly. And that PZ's brain would 'experience' that pain, right? I.e, produce that experience?
That's just what I can't get my head round; the PZ would produce the physical correlates of that experience, yes, but I can't in my own head, separate the word 'experience' from phenomenal consciousness, so I can't 'get to' that it can 'experience' anything purely physically. And part of the problem of that is in envisioning a physical world without phenomenal consciousness in the first place; basically that there is no PZ in the physical universe... no entities of any kind just a maelstrom of stuff interacting with other stuff in space (that's how I picture it anyway, and probably part of the problem)... so in consciousness we have this perception of unity... of a single thing that can experience... but in the physical world, any given state of consciousness would be represented by a certain physical state of many different interacting particles etc; nowhere to pin it down to any 'thing' experiencing. So that's why I can't get my head around it... I'm sure you're probably right... I just can't get my head around it.
