Best Theistic Arguments

[Angrboda]

My previous answer to Surr cover all your mad drivel.

No, it actually doesn't, if for no other reason than among said 'drivel' was the point that you had not presented any actual evidence for the four dogmas I listed earlier, chief among them being that vibrations are alive. So, no, you didn't answer everything. But let's deal with what you did answer (below).

In the meantime please note that as the consciousness leave the body that is death so people who saw their body from above saw their dead body.
You can't be alive without your consciousness.
It would be a vehicle without the driver.
It would be just a piece of metal.
With the driver gone the vehicle has no life in it.

This is unsatisfactory for several reasons:
1) It's not clear that consciousness "leaves the body" in an OBE, both for reasons discussed and some not (see quote below for example);
2) Even if consciousness is displaced during an OBE, it's not clear that the relationship between consciousness and the body has in any significant sense been disrupted or ended by that displacement. In particular, you claim both that consciousness is not physical and that it resides in the pineal gland. What it means for something that is not physical to have a location I'll leave up to you, but regardless, from the putative position in the pineal gland, consciousness is not directly in contact with sufficient nerves to control the body, so according to your view, we are constantly "remotely controlling" the body/brain anyhow, so what does the actual distance matter?
3) It's not clear in what sense consciousness does constitute the "you," nor is it true that an absence of consciousness equals death. We go to sleep each night without "dying";
4) As you can determine by looking up the relevant definitions, death is a permanent condition, not merely a transitory change in the relationship of one or more of a living organism's systems. In particular, death entails the continuous loss of homeostasis, which is of particular note as the cells in the brain and the brain itself maintains relative homeostasis even in the absence of blood and oxygen for a considerable time. At the very least, irretrievable loss of functional homeostasis does not occur.

So for these and undoubtedly other reasons, you are wrong in claiming that an OBE during an NDE is evidence that the person has died and is at that time "dead."

OBErs who do not lose consciousness before their experiences often report watching their bodies continue to perform coordinated actions—as if they were still in control of their bodies—while nevertheless apparently viewing them from above. Recalling an OBE while on patrol for the first time, chasing an armed suspect, a police officer reported:

I promptly went out of my body and up into the air maybe 20 feet above the scene. I remained there, extremely calm, while I watched the entire procedure—including watching myself do exactly what I had been trained to do (Alvarado 183).

After the suspect had been restrained and the danger was over, the officer returned to normal consciousness. Another OBEr, who had been running for over 12 miles training for a marathon, reported:

I felt as if something was leaving my body, and although I was still running along looking at the scenery, I was looking at myself running as well (184).

This ability to simultaneously 'hover' above the scene and continue to function as if 'in' the body strongly suggests the hallucinatory nature of these experiences. In some sleep disorders, for instance, subjects are able to exhibit "directed" behavior—e.g., sleepwalking and sleep eating—even though they are evidently not normally conscious. Taking on an extraordinary new perspective while functioning normally otherwise makes much more sense if such experiences are occurring 'in' the body all along, rather than in some remote discarnate entity detached from the physical body.

Hallucinatory Near-Death Experiences

Regardless of whether one accepts the author's interpretation of hallucination or not, it's evident that merely experiencing oneself as being conscious and viewing things from a perspective outside the body does not necessarily entail that consciousness is not still in contact with the body, still in control, and that life continues on more or less as normal, ignoring the specific weirdness of the perspective.

In the meantime can you please reply to my questions such as why the consciousness should be a product of the brain and why the death of the body should mean our death?

No, I don't believe that I will be doing that, and I'll tell you why. I have presented the reasons multiple times in the past and with each time, you simply dismissed the evidence without providing specific logical reasons for doing so. If you are not going to actually engage with the material, I see no point in having the discussion. Beyond that, it's really irrelevant, as I have never maintained that the evidence for the brain based nature of consciousness is conclusive, so that would make the discussion even more pointless given your ostensible goals. What is worth noting, however, is that you have repeatedly maintained that you have conclusive reasons for believing that consciousness transcends the body. Your dogmatic adherence to certain beliefs has been the main point or points of contention, and that is the main matter before us.

Beyond that, it's clear from arguing with you these many months that it is a favorite tactic of yours to deflect from scrutiny of your beliefs and worldview by changing the subject and making the subject about the other person's beliefs and worldview. Since we have an important question at issue here, I'd just as soon we finish with that before we turn our attention to other matters (if at all). In this thread and the evolution thread, you have continued to maintain that your beliefs are not dogma, and moreover that they have the backing of science. You've utterly failed at the latter claim, and your reasons for the former have so far been shown to be without basis. Instead, what has become apparent is that your worldview in general, and specifically the evolution of consciousness, are beliefs that are built upon dogma and articles of faith conscerning the value and efficacy of intuitional science. If you're willing to concede that "how the system works" according to you and yoga is a matter of dogma and faith, rather than reasons and evidence, then we can rest on that and perhaps turn to other matters. Otherwise I suggest you get busy and start providing some actual reasons and evidence for the four propositions discussed earlier. (Repeated here for your convenience.)

Since the following dogmas are foundational to your "system," it is obvious that you practice a religion.

1. Vibrations are alive/conscious.
2. Energy is alive/conscious.
3. Inanimate matter is conscious.
4. Life cannot come from non-life.