On Hell and Forgiveness

[Drich]

Drich, for most people...even most believing people, morality is not about loving god (or following the law).  It's about doing what is right, and not doing what is wrong.  It's about what we deserve in either case.  

but you confuse what is right with what is right for you. you are even willing to live with and accept evil in this standard of right. that what makes it pop morality. because right and wrong are a generational thing. just think 25 years ago and even hillary clinton's position on Gay people (don't ask don't tell) now look at it. "right and wrong mean nothing." the question is can you keep up with the standard of what society wants to live with.

At best, you believe that god set up a separate system to make an end run around moral agency and responsibility.

This is where you and legalistic christian fail to look past your own assumptions about the 'Agape' required (I hate saying love here because it gives you a false impression.) Look at what Agape' meant to Christ. If you were inclined to read the gospels and truly find out, all the crowds all the healing all the making fish and bread/feeding all the speeches took a great toll on him. yet he stayed and gave of himself.

look at Him praying in the garden to have the cross burden taken from him, but went anyway because of us/those who wish to be saved. look at what was endured on our behalf, try and think of all the spiritual pain we can never know while he was dead those three days.

That is Agape' That is doing far and beyond what is simply right. that is giving yourself up to be ravaged by the wolves for the sake of maybe saving a few from what you know will be a terrible life. Why do you think I come back day after day? I truly do not need to be verbally lashed by a few dozen people talking turns till they wear themselves out, only to be picked up by someone else the next day. But it is not about me. it is bout showing you the grace I was shown when I was standing in your shoes.

IT is about showing you what agape means by giving you a maximum effort each and every time I try and explain something one of you asks about and it is about consistency in the fact that no matter how heated things get I try treat each post as if it were the first.

Why because again that is what I needed and as a direct result of the 2nd command Christ gave us, to treat you as I want to be treated. or in this case how I was treated till I changed.

Despite what people think about this, in run around morality, Christ Himself boiled the whole law down to two single points for Christians that is 1 Love/show Agape to God with all that you have, and 2 show your neighbor the agape you want to receive for yourself. which by default makes you want to go beyond what is right if you are honest with yourself. i use the word agape as a substitute for love because people now discard the word love as it means too many trivial things. Agape is a specific all encompassing type of love built on duty respect and honor for a person. this is more of a warrior/hard fought bond and not a valentine's greeting which is quickly forgotten.

To show one the agape you yourself needs puts you preaching to the crowds after they take and take and take from you, after they beat you up it puts you in prayer to have this burden taken from you. In that you just want to have a normal job/life and not feel responsible for a mob of strangers who hate and revile you most of the time. this agape will even see you to your own personal cross/real death, or even years and years of service with no promises, no end in site.
You may trivialize Jesus two rules for Christianity, but if you gave it any serious thought, you would see there is far more being asked of you in the way of doing not your 'right thing' but God's 'right thing' which mirrors what has already been done for you.

  This is why, in all the time you've been here..you've made no headway with the whole "pop morality" thing.  Most* of the people here do not believe in your god, a moral person (believing or otherwise)

of course not because morality is that generational standard that changes to fit the amount of evil you want to live with. morality is not about being or doing good it is about making excuses for evil. Is it moral to steal, still no.. is it moral to steal a loaf of bread to feed your starving children? yes of course it is. Is it moral to kill? no again, is it moral to kill a baby? 1000x's no.. is it moral to kill a fetus, yes...

Do you see? morality is not about doing right.. it is about justifying wrong. or rather making wrong right, and right wrong. So if God is righteous, then by the actions of 'morality' God becomes what is wrong, while what once was evil become what is right/the gold standard. So of course if you use a corrupt standard like morality where generationally good is redefined to accept evil society wishes to live with, then of course God will become less and less moral in your eyes.

Do you see? you created a standard to fit your tastes.. So did the colonial Americans when they adopted Slavery, So did we when we slaughtered the american indians, So did hitler when he slaughtered the jews citing us when we killed the indians..
before you just react, think about that for a second.. in hitler's germany, it was one's MORAL Obligation to help the state any way you were asked to kill all the jews within the boarders of your country. Do you see the connection? do you see how far 'morality' can stretch? do you know if they won the war, this would not be any different than the execution of criminals or the extermination of all the fetu-i? we have aborted since roe-v-wade?
6 million jews dead, and in that state, in that time, it was your MORAL obligation to do so..

It is only by the grace of time and society do you have the perspective to call those germans wrong or evil. There were 80 something million people living in germany just before WWII, don't think for an instant you are unlike anyone else here who lives by pop morality then or now. Any one living by this pop standard would have not the wherewithal to buck the pop morality of hitler's germany.

Why can I say that? because they like you were conditioned to blindly accept anything "science" said. If information was packaged in such a manner sourcing from science through the right political affiliation (what we now deem as propaganda) would be considered to be iron clad truth to them. Just like darwinism or global warming is to us witnessed by our willingness to spend trillions, or in the case of germany or the jews Science through a political party Identified everyone in this race of people as a genetic parasite on the human race, citing their facial features (noses/hooked hair black and matted curly, eye placement ect ect..) all of these things were supposed scientific proof that the jews were a genetic plague which did nothing more than horde valuables (creating an artificial gap in the standard of living/They had money supposedly and the "better breed" of people starved because of it) and consume resources better spent on again on the master/purer race.

The point is not from your life and social pov can you look at this point in time in this society with everything you know now, and discern whether or not you would fall for the propaganda.. no..

The point is given the frame work which the government structured the delivery of 'scientific fact' are you inclined right now, to act in favor of a 'scientific fact/truth' or can you stand objectively against what popular culture thinks/says even if 'science does not support you? can you right now stand on blind principle? That is why 80 MILLION Germans followed hitler. Their political party saved them from starvation with socialist public works, and science has provided them with the industry and technology to make them the strongest nation in the world..

Right now the (thankfully) the political system is not aligned with 'science' but when it comes around again and the push all the carbon taxes and get all the legislation they want eventually they will have to start to deal with the real problem... over population. and people hardest on resources. I don't see camps or ovens, but i can see a denial of public resources to 'people who do these things to themselves.' and I'm sure 'science will be used to back such a thing.. You know like a culling of say all heavy drug users, we don't put them in camps we just deny them public service (like Im sure some sort of obama care will be in place we can't afford making us choose who gets medical and who doesn't) or what about the extremely obese? they do it to themselves so as a people we vote and decide to refuse to waste precious medical resources on a person over 300 lbs.. or the old.. say a man only works 1/3 of his life paying into the system and need crazy expensive care the other 2/3s, should those who put in 100% be at risk for denial of service just because this guy who only put in 1/3 took more from the system? again no camps but the net result is the same. what about food distrbution? Say it comes down to a government service like in all socialist countries..
Who gets what and how much? and on and on. there are hundreds of ways of killing people in this own homes/no camps needed, when society turns on a smaller group to save the larger what mechanism do you have in place that says no? Can it say no to science? can it say no to all the leftist nut bags you guys worship? then why hasn't it?

then we move to genetically modifying all children so there are no birth defects, and then no obesity genes, and on and on till we do indeed have a master race. again instead of camps we do it clean/let nature take it course let darwinism have it's natural selection powered by a little more scientific advancement.

Again if you are not in a place to objectively refuse and justifiably so, the 'truths' or morality of modern popular culture you are currently NO different than those 80 million germans who allowed their pop morality to include murdering 6 million men women and children because of their faith and genetic features.

Without an absolute standard there is no end to what you can 'morally justify.'

So you call me immoral you call god immoral, I say thank you. I can stand apart from society and say no that is not right no that is wrong! Despite what our government may demand or what science may say.. and what is the knee jerk reaction? what have you been programmed to do with someone who can stand apart from society? you attack them personally of course you make them out to be a fool and dismiss them quickly so their ideas do not infect anyone else/you don't want you or your peers to think for yourselves.. just keep sucking from the nipple of science and social justice, nothing bad has ever come of that!

has no need of reference to your god, and the thing you are describing has nothing whatsoever to do with morality.

*By most I mean no one, ofc.  You're the only person here who believes in your god.

wouldn't be much of an atheist website if I weren't.
As far as other Christians go it is a personal Journey. not that I am at the end or the final revelation, but God will meet you any where along this path. if you need a legalistic God, he still has rules you can follow, but this is/what I describe what He wants for us to share with Him. not the crap the R/C church teaches but freedom and a direct one on one relationship where you can feel if you were to ask God to XYZ you know if your stuff is together you would XYZ