RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
August 21, 2020 at 12:34 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2020 at 1:01 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
If you're not there, then god failed to help at least once. Our respective positions on belief are irrelevant to some third party's failure. Nothing about either of us, or any additional parties, is relevant.
Let's say that I blew the dam, and you took out the warning speakers. Some poor schmuck is about to get flooded out. The object of our moral consideration - let's call him Joe - sees this, could stop it, but doesn't. He didn't start it, it's not his fault, but he has the poor schmucks life in his hands - which is a situation of moral import all by itself -. What sort of character has Joe displayed here? Good character, or bad character? A plain reading would strongly suggest bad character. Now, we can propose whatever reason we like, and we can propose whatever goal we desire, for the explanation of why Joe displayed bad character in a situation with moral import...but it's important to acknowledge that this is what we're doing, if so.
Telling me that you don't know who god will fail and who god won't fail doesn't answer any objection to god failing. No more so than proposing god disposes instead of burns, or fails to help instead of disposing, would or could answer an objection to a god doing a bad thing.
Some of us apply those same standards to god beliefs - and it's because of this consistent standard that we cannot be a member of your cult. Not for things we disagree about, but because of things we agree about, that one party applies equally to gods..and the other party does not. Now, that won't make you change your mind about gods existing, probably doesn't touch your own intuitions about gods goodness, either..but it could and should change your mind with respect to how, and how accurately, a person can object to your cult - without having gotten anything wrong.
I've determined that the character of your god, if it did exist, and if it did or does what -you- say it did or does, is not worthy of worship - assuming that anything is to begin with. There are shitty people in this world, who show bad character as moral agents, if I was interested in bending the knee to bad people. No need to look up for that one. When we dial our moral consideration up by orders of magnitude, to a god, and all that god-ness demands and implies, it's hard for me to believe that the standards should drop. That we should expect less from gods than from lowly human worms. More from the child that doesn't know what's good for them, than the parent who does.
Let's say that I blew the dam, and you took out the warning speakers. Some poor schmuck is about to get flooded out. The object of our moral consideration - let's call him Joe - sees this, could stop it, but doesn't. He didn't start it, it's not his fault, but he has the poor schmucks life in his hands - which is a situation of moral import all by itself -. What sort of character has Joe displayed here? Good character, or bad character? A plain reading would strongly suggest bad character. Now, we can propose whatever reason we like, and we can propose whatever goal we desire, for the explanation of why Joe displayed bad character in a situation with moral import...but it's important to acknowledge that this is what we're doing, if so.
Telling me that you don't know who god will fail and who god won't fail doesn't answer any objection to god failing. No more so than proposing god disposes instead of burns, or fails to help instead of disposing, would or could answer an objection to a god doing a bad thing.
Some of us apply those same standards to god beliefs - and it's because of this consistent standard that we cannot be a member of your cult. Not for things we disagree about, but because of things we agree about, that one party applies equally to gods..and the other party does not. Now, that won't make you change your mind about gods existing, probably doesn't touch your own intuitions about gods goodness, either..but it could and should change your mind with respect to how, and how accurately, a person can object to your cult - without having gotten anything wrong.
I've determined that the character of your god, if it did exist, and if it did or does what -you- say it did or does, is not worthy of worship - assuming that anything is to begin with. There are shitty people in this world, who show bad character as moral agents, if I was interested in bending the knee to bad people. No need to look up for that one. When we dial our moral consideration up by orders of magnitude, to a god, and all that god-ness demands and implies, it's hard for me to believe that the standards should drop. That we should expect less from gods than from lowly human worms. More from the child that doesn't know what's good for them, than the parent who does.
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