RE: Atheism and the existence of peanut butter
September 7, 2021 at 10:52 pm
(This post was last modified: September 7, 2021 at 10:56 pm by R00tKiT.)
(September 7, 2021 at 9:31 pm)LostLocke Wrote: That means there can not be and never will be any actual evidence of this being. All the "evidence" you have is based on intangible things, like experiences or feelings or thoughts or sensations, etc. These thing might be fine for you, as an individual, but can not be transferred to another person. Unless another person "experiences" these same things as you, they have no justification for belief in this being. They simply have to take your word for it.
What I meant by a category mistake is that disembodied minds (e.g. God) can't be the object of a mundane scientific experiment. By definition of a disembodied mind, one cannot derive some experiment that proves its existence, unlike an embodied mind (e.g. human beings) or an object/particle such as electrons.
But this doesn't preclude using empirical observations as a premise in an argument. In fact, many standard arguments in favor of God's existence are a posteriori arguments. In other words, they start with well-known facts about the universe and attempt to deduce/infer the existence of a god or a first cause. A priori arguments like the ontological argument attempt to derive God's existence by pure logical deduction.
It seems that you're referring above to religious experience. I am not trying to argue from any experience. To me, a religious experience can only be evaluated by its content, and it can only serve to show that some individual had some kind of a connexion with the divine, that is, we should already assume God's existence before attempting to assess a religious experience within a theistic framework.
God's existence is vastly more probable than not given the perceived order in the universe. Upon seeing a car engine, you immediately think of how skillful its designers must be, it's asinine to suggest it was put together without the existence of some intention. In the case of the universe, the analogy is valid, and the fact that complex entities evolved through time doesn't invalidate it, because the very process of evolution could be (is?) part of a divine intention. The basic argument then is that a personal, intentional agent behind the perceived order (regarding the arrangement of matter AND the physical laws) explains the universe's orderly nature better than a non-personal cause. This can be formulated better using bayesian-type arguments, by showing that the probability of order arising under a godless universe is vastly smaller than its counterpart (under theism), but this clearly requires some additional homework.
But the layman doesn't need advanced training in bayesian statistics to believe in God. The simplest fact about us is that we are naturally tilted towards teleology, we explain things by agency and intent. We should trust the sensus divinitatis the same way we trust our senses when investigating the external world. Surprisingly, a leading criticism against the sensus divinitatis is the appeal to religious diversity, which I showed to be an empty objection in the thread.
(September 7, 2021 at 10:09 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Then your proposition is unfalsifiable and therefore useless. You have no good reason to even include it in a set of competing hypotheses as an explanation for anything. Well done, you Goomba.
Unfalsifiable doesn't imply useless. Besides, the criterion of falsifiability only makes sense when applied to some scientific theory. So, there you go, we have a second category mistake: applying a scientific criterion to a metaphysical concept.
(September 7, 2021 at 9:17 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: Translation, asking for evidence of existence for an non-existent being.
I think you already know that a disembodied mind/object can never be ruled out. You simply can't prove that it's non-existent.