(September 16, 2021 at 3:28 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote: FFS, Klorophyll, do you really think you've proved the existence of not only God, but a benevolent one at that?
Here is a hypothesis:
1) There was a time when there was nothing.
2) At some time the first thing that wasn't nothing came into existence.
Now, how would I go about determining this? I'm not even sure the hypothesis makes sense. Is true nothingness even a logical possibility? What is "time" when there is nothing? How long does "nothingness" last before there is something? Is it infinite, or does nothingness need to get created from "super-duper nothingness" at a finite time? If it requires a God, to create something from nothing, then what created the God? Oh, it was "outside time", or "eternal"? If a god can be eternal, so can a universe. If a cause can be outside time and space, then we might as well throw up our hands and admit that our ideas of causality make no sense, and invoking a deity doesn't solve anything.
Theists don't realize that their answers as to how the universe can require a creator and God not require a creator come up short. The classic answer to the complaint that if God had no beginning then he must be past eternal is that He is outside time, thus obviating the need for either a beginning or a past eternity. Yet theists like Chloroform here are so dimwitted that they fail to realize that if a god can evade the dichotomy by existing outside time, then in order to be consistent they must also accept that some other cause of the universe that is not God that exists outside time is also be possible. Unfortunately, positing that God is outside time doesn't work. If God created the universe and did not exist prior to the universe, then the existence of God and the universe's beginning are simultaneous and God cannot be the cause of the universe, as a cause must precede its effect in general. So in order for God to have created the universe, then there must have been a time other than the event of creation in which God exists, but the universe does not. That places God in time at those two points, as the existence of two mutually exclusive events necessitates a temporal relationship. So, can one place God outside time before that? No, because doing so would create another temporal relation and simply lead to an infinite regress. So God cannot both exist outside of time and be the creator of the universe. He can only create the universe simultaneous with his existing, which is incoherent and entails that God began to exist and therefore has a cause by the logic of the cosmological argument, or he can be past eternal in a temporal space that exists apart from this universe. In neither case is he "outside time."