Ben & Jerry's - Good Guys

[Tiberius]

Well I'd say capitalism in a consumer-controlled society keeps greed down to a minimum. The government cannot control the markets, and the markets cannot control the government. The markets are controlled by the consumers. If company A starts using greedy business tactics, they might lose some of their consumers to company B, which doesn't. Company A is either forced to take the loss, or change its business tactics to regain consumers.

Boycotts are a very effective means of controlling the market. Look at a recent example with GoDaddy; who originally supported SOPA, and thanks to a boycott of their domain services (including hundreds of thousands of domains being switched away from them), they reversed their position in less than 24 hours.

People in any kind of power should only have power over what they control. So elected government officials should only have power over things the government controls, and the leaders of business should only have power over their business. At the moment, the system is backwards; governments have power over practically everything, and big businesses have control over not only their own business, but the inner workings of government too. Just like there should be a separation of church and state, there should be a separation of business and state.

[5thHorseman]

'Boycotts are a very effective means of controlling the market. Look at a recent example with GoDaddy; who originally supported SOPA, and thanks to a boycott of their domain services (including hundreds of thousands of domains being switched away from them), they reversed their position in less than 24 hours'

This is great news.

'there should be a separation of business and state.'

I do agree to an extent, businesses should be run by businessmen, not politicians. But the greed that comes with it keeps me thinking that government regulation and high taxation on businesses are a neccessary evil as businesses (especially financial) show time and again that they cannot be trusted and are willing to risk much at the expence of the people they should serve.

---

Although I should also state that greedy individuals make this possible in the first place, no one says no to a 12% increase in their investment in a year.

[Tiberius]

Yes, but the greed is limited to each corporation. I think human greed is just that; human. We aren't going to be able to legislate away from a human condition. The only way human conditions are overcome is when they affect the masses in such a way that they cause a mass rejection (as seen with the GoDaddy-SOPA event).

The problem with government intervention is that it often goes both ways, with government bailing out big business when they fail, but not when small business fails. Additionally, the problem with regulation is that it is often expensive for companies to comply with, which isn't a problem for big business, but most certainly is for small / medium business. So the main problem I have with regulation is that the problem it attempts to solve (i.e. corruption in big business) is practically non-existent in small business, and yet regulation affects small / medium business the most. It just doesn't make any sense.

[5thHorseman]

'So the main problem I have with regulation is that the problem it attempts to solve (i.e. corruption in big business) is practically non-existent in small business, and yet regulation affects small / medium business the most. It just doesn't make any sense.'

Could not agree more.

I am a big fan of small and medium size businesses, they create more than big business.

I remember reading that a big plus of small and medium business is the salary's of the directors/owners is considerably less in proportion to that of greedy big business execs because they have a real interest in re-investing, growing the business and actually have contact with their staff and hense they treat them better. Where as there is a huge management myth in big business where people hero worship the likes of Bob Diamond and massively overpay him and other execs and they ignore the lower echelons.

[Tiberius]

So what is your solution to this problem? How can you support government regulation and high tax on business when it destroys small / medium business all the time?

[5thHorseman]

High tax and regulation on large businesses and deregulation of small/medium businesses.

But then that's unfair, so i dont know. Maybe a business watchdog that probes big business' would work.

[Autumnlicious]

High tax and regulation on large businesses and deregulation of small/medium businesses.

But then that's unfair, so i dont know. Maybe a business watchdog that probes big business' would work.

Bullshit. It isn't fair.

The large businesses have accumulated wealth from everyone else. If they were intelligent, like Adrian hopes for, they'd reinvest those profits back into the economy. Hear that?

Because economies are models of monetary transactions held in lieu of material and intellectual goods (financial trading, unfortunately, is the latter). The model breaks if those transactions cease or slows down -- that's why they talk so much of ethereal "consumer confidence".

That's why keeping large moneyed entities from simply storing their cash is such an imperative, by any means necessary. If it must be taxes because some large corporate entity is being a bad actor, then so be it.

Stop phrasing shit as "its soooo unfair!!111".

Because it isn't.

It's how we set up a competition based model of resource trading.

Learn to work with it and cover the deficiencies.

And no Adrian, it isn't perfect. It would only be perfect for your world if:

- Consumers had access to unbiased and near complete information
- Consumers cared
- Companies were responsible and eschewed their irresponsible brethren.

However, the reason I and others advocate for having government (and perhaps other means) interfere is to keep the pirates, the criminals down.

Come up with a better series of protocols other than a blue sky idea and I'll agree with you.

[Perhaps]

I would recommend the book: Economic Systems Analysis and Policies for anyone who's interested in why each economic system fails when implemented in the real world. Should be easy to find at any large library.

http://www.amazon.com/Economic-Systems-A...0230223826

As for the idea that government should interfere with the market to keep the pirates down...

The market is based on competition, as you stated. Through this competition is natural selection. The fastest, most intelligent, and best prepared get the ultimate advantage of success.

The system fails the collective, but that's the point of the system. Anyone is capable of being the fastest, most intelligent, and best prepared - it comes from education (which is what the government should care about).

What is happening is a large dependency on welfare (government run) now that the baby-boom is retiring. This, stacked with large government spending in the past without thought of the future, has crippled the ability of the government to provide for the people. Don't blame the system, blame the government.

The simple point, people are unemployed, homeless, and dependent on hand outs because of failed education. Either you make education privatized or you make it the biggest priority of the government. Instead of simply doubling the amount spent on each child nationally, the government needs to get rid of teacher's unions, eradicate tenure, and implement systems where teachers are evaluated based on their performance. Schools need to be built to match the needs of the children learning in them. Provide the best technology and the best teachers and you will have a system where all children succeed. It's too late for those who are already in the work place, but they need to do what's right for their kids, and stop blaming it on the system.

[The Grand Nudger]

Well I'd say capitalism in a consumer-controlled society keeps greed down to a minimum. The government cannot control the markets, and the markets cannot control the government. The markets are controlled by the consumers.

Where is this society? I see societies where governments control markets.......I see societies where markets control governments.

[Tiberius]

It doesn't exist in any form at the moment. You need to change the role of government to change the role of society. Currently I can't think of any government that isn't overly authoritarian.