Challenge

[Edwardo Piet]

@ fr0d0:
Are you sure you're genuinely hoping it will? Don't you already BELIEVE it will? Do you really have to hope?

Shit, if you really had to hope and really were actually hoping it (as if you had to because you believe there's a good chance it WOULDN'T come up :S, or something like that :S) - then I think you'd bloody feel something!!

Shit, I don't have to HOPE the sun will come up. I obviously believe it will. Crap, if I think I actually had to HOPE for it - I think I bloody WOULD feel something - paranoia!! I think if I had to actually HOPE for the sun (genuinely) then I'd be fucking messed up!!

EvF

[fr0d0]

Well how I feel about the Sun coming up is entirely different isn't it?

I might be brought to tears by the prospect of a grey dustball in it's place. I might feel great expectation that it'll be a hot day so I can go out and have a great day in the park with my kids. I'd feel the emotion happinness thinking of it.

What has that got to do with hope though? Hope seems to be independent of those emotions/ on the connected emotional word.

I hope to win. I hope I don't lose. I hope I'll be happy. I hope It doesn't make it sad.

The statement "Faith is hope in something unseen" just implies that you don't know. There's is no qualifying emotional connector.

[Edwardo Piet]

So you mean could be a very vague hope that doesn't really have any feeling or meaning in it? Fair enough, although I don't know how you know it specifically implies hope like THAT and NOT hope as in the more emotional kind..

You mean like hope like this....:

"I personally never wish to play the lottery. But I hope that if I ever do, just the once - that when I do I will win rather than lose. Although I am not feeling this hope at all since losing one ticket rather than winning the lottery just the once in a one-off lottery attempt - is not something that worries or bothers me or I am feeling at all. I simply hope that if I DO do that - I DON'T lose 1 lottery ticket - simply because it's better to not lose a ticket and a bit of cash than...to 'lose a ticket and a bit of cash'. It's no actual biggie and I'm not actually feeling it all."

Although...you MAY be feeling it extremely slightly on an emotional level...subconsciously or unconsciously and not know it...for I think simply from thinking something we feel those thoughts - even if we don't know it.

So I think we feel EVERYTHING and every word we think about at some level even if we don't know it. But that's just me, it could be bollocks. But I think if we don't feel a thought or a word, picture or sound/piece of music we are thinking about AT some level then we couldn't be alive. I think we'd feel it at some level, subconsciously or unconsciously, etc - even if we don't/didn't know it.

Extremely vague meaningless unfeeling hope like that you mean? Without emotion?

If that's the case fr0d0, how do you narrow it down to specifically that kind of hope and know that it doesn't mean the more emotional kind (or another kind, if there is one?).

EvF

[chatpilot]

You cant say that you hope that the sun will come up tomorrow.It's not the same thing,we know it will 'come up' tomorrow.Whether we can see it or not is a different issue altogether.Technically, the sun does not come up at all in a sense we (the Earth) come around.I agree with EvF that you cant separate hope from emotion,it cant be done.

By saying you hope in something for good or for bad is saying that it matters to you, and that in itself involves even in a minimal sense an emotional investiture.

[Edwardo Piet]

Yes - even if it's so vague you barely feel it. If you 'have hope' then you must 'feel it' to some extent I think (even if not consciously - it's still an emotion I say).

EvF

[chatpilot]

That is what I have been trying to get frodo to see but he has his own dictionary in his head about the meanings of alot of words that are in contemporary use but mean something totally different to him and him alone.

[Edwardo Piet]

Yup, because after all - even an extremely mild feeling is still a feeling.

Even very mild concern is an emotion. An emotion which I think I experience quite frequently lol.

Feeling bored or empty...'feeling' 'absence of feeling' is still a feeling. You gotta feel something if you are alive.

And if you genuinely hope something - you must feel it to some extent, surely? Certainly?

I mean the key word there is genuine. Sure if you claim to hope something but don't really you are faking hope (just like faking belief). But if you really DO hope then you must feel IT. Like if you really DO believe something then you must believe IT. And wishing to believe (i.e hope ) is not belief. And claiming to hope when you aren't hoping isn't hope.

Very easy to claim to hope and also claim that you don't feel it - if you don't actually genuinely hope it!

If you really do HAVE hope. Or really do 'hope' surely you must feel it.

Ok I think we've been round there - what next? Lol.

EvF

[chatpilot]

What?? Lol you are starting to sound like frodo there EvF.Too funny but I get it.

[Edwardo Piet]

How am I sounding like fr0d0??? Lol

Wtf?

How? Lol.

EvF

[chatpilot]

You know how he loves to talk circles around the issues discussed.Well,my friend you just did the same thing in a sense.You made your statement in a very circular manner.