Are faith, God and love without deeds, dead?

[Minimalist]

Paul and James are both correct in what they say

Both are as phony as your fucking jesus. That's the only thing they have in common.

[Doubting Thomas]

Christ says to those who did unto others as you would have done unto me,
Christ says to those who did not do unto others as you would do unto me, the real difference here is that the goats do not believe in Christ, so they could not have treated others as they would Christ. They are judged for their unbelief and their actions show their unbelief.

Obviously you just don't understand the story or are being obtuse. I suspect both. There's nothing in the story which says that one group (goats) don't believe in Jesus. It's all about treating your fellow humans as you would Jesus. If you treat your fellow people well, then you treat Jesus well and get into Heaven. Treat people poorly and you treat Jesus poorly, and are cast into Hell. So therefore, both good works and faith are necessary to get to Heaven, according to Christian mythology.

[Godscreated]

Christ says to those who did unto others as you would have done unto me,
Christ says to those who did not do unto others as you would do unto me, the real difference here is that the goats do not believe in Christ, so they could not have treated others as they would Christ. They are judged for their unbelief and their actions show their unbelief.

Obviously you just don't understand the story or are being obtuse. I suspect both. There's nothing in the story which says that one group (goats) don't believe in Jesus. It's all about treating your fellow humans as you would Jesus. If you treat your fellow people well, then you treat Jesus well and get into Heaven. Treat people poorly and you treat Jesus poorly, and are cast into Hell. So therefore, both good works and faith are necessary to get to Heaven, according to Christian mythology.

Sorry, but your blinders are hindering you ability to see the truth.

[Epimethean]

Ms. Keller, video-conference coming through.

[Doubting Thomas]

My blinders? Hardly. I guess all the stuff Jesus said about feeding the hungry and helping the poor and all that just doesn't matter? Remember the passage about "Sell all you have and give that money to the poor, then you can follow me?" Jesus wanted the rich to help out the poor, simple as that. The way you're trying to spin it is like a lot of asshole Christians who think that as long as you accept Jesus as your personal savior, then fuck everyone else.

[Welsh cake]

Just as ants cannot please or offend humans,we cannot please or offend an infinite being. The love and forgiveness of such a being must be unconditional. (another reason for no hell)

That's a bad example. People keep ant farms because they're fond of observing the insects' cooperation and diligence at work. Conversely people like Chuck are offended by their intrusion into their homes as they search for food.

[Greatest I am]

Are faith, God and love without deeds, dead?

Paul took the position that salvation could be gained on faith alone. James took the position that faith without works and deeds is dead. Even if one had faith, like demons and Satan must, without works they were still going to hell.

Paul and James are both correct in what they say, there is no contradiction between the two as some would suggest or claim. Paul says that to receive salvation there are no works involved, faith and faith alone. What Jame's says is one can not live the same as they did before they receive salvation, they will prove to others who they are by their works, in other words if one continues to live in a sinful life style without repentance they are giving up their salvation.

Most have landed with James who said that faith without deeds and works was dead. This may be due to Jesus who said that we would recognize his people by their works.

I would tend to agree with this because, without the works or deeds one is not demonstrating the faith they may claim to have, though, I do believe that faith itself is not works.

Again as I said Jame's is speaking of the life of a christian, not how they came to their salvation. There is a division between many denominations as to what Jame's is referring to, obtaining or maintaining one's salvation.

I am a tad late here so let me first answer a question you place further down.

You asked for something from Jesus to show that deeds are required. He said something like---you will know my people by their works.

Now. Further down here, you say that you agree that love needs deeds and in the same breath say that faith come differently and does not need deeds. If you have faith in God, does that not mean that you have learned to love him? Yes it does and that is why I gave the same requirements for love as faith. You are letting dogma lead your thinking and you need to reverse that and let thinking lead your dogma. Even your bible tells you to test all things. That means to me that thinking comes before acceptance of dogma. Do so.

Love, it would seem to me, has the same characteristic as faith. Love without works and deeds is dead. Be it love for a spouse, our children, parents or friends or even God, if we did not do works and deeds, they could not know that we love them. At the very least, we would have to tell them we love them and that falls into works and deeds.

I do agree that there is no love without works but, faith comes about IMO in different ways or needs. A child has faith that Santa is real even to the point of belief. There is no work done to have this faith but, the child will demonstrate this faith through works such as writing Santa a letter and/or leave cookies and milk for him.

There is a work involved. He must believe his parents.

Right.

Love on the other hand most likely starts as an attraction to someone, and that attraction becomes love as we start to do for others. So love is in a way a work, faith and belief are in themselves not works but shown through works.

How would the one loved know they are loved if that attraction was not shown in some way?
The other party could not and might not do the deeds on their part to show a return of that love and a love that is not reciprocated cannot be true love.

I love Shania Twain but she will not know that unless I do a work that she recognizes and returns it. If she does not, my love is cold and unfulfilled and not true in any real sense. Reciprocity is key. Just like faith, it needs works. So says Jesus.

Many believers tell me that God is love or loves us all. They always point to deeds and works that fall in the range of un-provable miracles. Most of these miracles are in the ancient past. Creation and what not. Some take it to the present and I have been told often that God can do whatever he wants with us because he made us. I discard this out of hand because I believe that if that were true, God would not also create all those things that kill us and cause us to suffer. That is not a loving act.

God is love, it is what He is not who He is. God did not create those things in the beginning, a read of Genesis will show this to be the case, those things that harm us came after the fall. Whether these things came about through God creating them or through species adaptation I do not know. As far as a loving act, if you punish your child do you do it because you dislike them or love them.

Are you a J W? They will withhold a blood transfusion that will save their child life. I call that murder by omission and I think the courts do as well.

In Eden, I see God doing the same to A & E by withholding what would save them. The tree of life.

If your child is suffering at your feet with a peanut allergic reaction and you put a lock on the medicine chest where the antidote is and he dies. Have you murdered him?
Damned right you have. Would you think that the right and moral thing to do? I hope not so why do you think it was the right thing for God to do? Does that sound like God usual justice of an eye for an eye?
No. It is murder for a minor infraction. For God's sake. Think before dogma like the bible tells you to do.

Love, human to human, must have ongoing deeds and works to be alive. Without these, love is dead.

Love, God to human, must also have ongoing works and deeds. If God is alive, he must and would express his love with viable and recognizable actions.

If we cannot see these acts on God’s part --- and you agree that love must be expressed somehow with works and deeds, ----does that mean that God does not love or that he is dead?

In part I do agree, what I want to know, is the nonbeliever able to see the works of love from God when they do not recognize He is real, I do not see how, I see His works in my life, even when other Christians may not, so how could a nonbeliever see God's loving work.

[/quote]

Now you are showing your lack of faith.

Proverbs 3:12
For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Leave that to God and worry about your own soul. If you cannot save you by recognizing that God does not lose any souls, you cannot help others. Physician heal thyself.

Your salvation depends on not calling evil good and good evil and I see you calling evil good because you do not understand how to read your bible. It can lead you to apotheosis the same way it helped me push mine but you have to put thought before dogma. Not after.

Regards
DL

[reverendjeremiah]

Sorry, but your blinders are hindering you ability to see the truth.

You wouldnt know the truth if it was slamming you up the bung dry.

Anyone who clings to angels, Heaven, Hell, invisible gods and assorted spirit nasties and noahs arc and faith healing etc...

Dude, you have NO place to talk of not seeing the truth. You're living in fantasy land just because you do not like the idea of a REAL universe in which bad shit happens to good people, the bad guys go unpunished, and there is no eternal father figure looking over your special telling you how great or how worthless you are.


If we are blinded to the truth, then explain why your all powerful "savior" Jesus sits on his high and mighty hands and watches a little boy get RAPED by a catholic preist..."Help me Jesus, stop this man! It hurts so bad!"

I guess Jesus thinks the rapists freewill is more important than innocent kids freewill to NOT be raped. Thats why Jesus just sits there and watches it.

...either that or Jesus WANTS it to happen. Or Jesus doesnt exist.

[Doubting Thomas]

Rev, you've just got blinders on. Can't you see how a young boy being raped by a Catholic priest is showing the glory of God? God's ways are not ours to know...


or some shit like that.

[Godscreated]

My blinders? Hardly. I guess all the stuff Jesus said about feeding the hungry and helping the poor and all that just doesn't matter? Remember the passage about "Sell all you have and give that money to the poor, then you can follow me?" Jesus wanted the rich to help out the poor, simple as that. The way you're trying to spin it is like a lot of asshole Christians who think that as long as you accept Jesus as your personal savior, then fuck everyone else.

No, Jesus asked the rich man to sell all he had and give it to the poor so the rich man would not have another god (money) in his life. Jesus knew this man as everyone else can not serve two gods.

---

Are faith, God and love without deeds, dead?

Paul took the position that salvation could be gained on faith alone. James took the position that faith without works and deeds is dead. Even if one had faith, like demons and Satan must, without works they were still going to hell.

Paul and James are both correct in what they say, there is no contradiction between the two as some would suggest or claim. Paul says that to receive salvation there are no works involved, faith and faith alone. What Jame's says is one can not live the same as they did before they receive salvation, they will prove to others who they are by their works, in other words if one continues to live in a sinful life style without repentance they are giving up their salvation.

Most have landed with James who said that faith without deeds and works was dead. This may be due to Jesus who said that we would recognize his people by their works.

I would tend to agree with this because, without the works or deeds one is not demonstrating the faith they may claim to have, though, I do believe that faith itself is not works.

Again as I said Jame's is speaking of the life of a christian, not how they came to their salvation. There is a division between many denominations as to what Jame's is referring to, obtaining or maintaining one's salvation.

I am a tad late here so let me first answer a question you place further down.

You asked for something from Jesus to show that deeds are required. He said something like---you will know my people by their works.

Now. Further down here, you say that you agree that love needs deeds and in the same breath say that faith come differently and does not need deeds. If you have faith in God, does that not mean that you have learned to love him? Yes it does and that is why I gave the same requirements for love as faith. You are letting dogma lead your thinking and you need to reverse that and let thinking lead your dogma. Even your bible tells you to test all things. That means to me that thinking comes before acceptance of dogma. Do so.

Love, it would seem to me, has the same characteristic as faith. Love without works and deeds is dead. Be it love for a spouse, our children, parents or friends or even God, if we did not do works and deeds, they could not know that we love them. At the very least, we would have to tell them we love them and that falls into works and deeds.

I do agree that there is no love without works but, faith comes about IMO in different ways or needs. A child has faith that Santa is real even to the point of belief. There is no work done to have this faith but, the child will demonstrate this faith through works such as writing Santa a letter and/or leave cookies and milk for him.

There is a work involved. He must believe his parents.

Right.

Love on the other hand most likely starts as an attraction to someone, and that attraction becomes love as we start to do for others. So love is in a way a work, faith and belief are in themselves not works but shown through works.

How would the one loved know they are loved if that attraction was not shown in some way?
The other party could not and might not do the deeds on their part to show a return of that love and a love that is not reciprocated cannot be true love.

I love Shania Twain but she will not know that unless I do a work that she recognizes and returns it. If she does not, my love is cold and unfulfilled and not true in any real sense. Reciprocity is key. Just like faith, it needs works. So says Jesus.

Many believers tell me that God is love or loves us all. They always point to deeds and works that fall in the range of un-provable miracles. Most of these miracles are in the ancient past. Creation and what not. Some take it to the present and I have been told often that God can do whatever he wants with us because he made us. I discard this out of hand because I believe that if that were true, God would not also create all those things that kill us and cause us to suffer. That is not a loving act.

God is love, it is what He is not who He is. God did not create those things in the beginning, a read of Genesis will show this to be the case, those things that harm us came after the fall. Whether these things came about through God creating them or through species adaptation I do not know. As far as a loving act, if you punish your child do you do it because you dislike them or love them.

Are you a J W? They will withhold a blood transfusion that will save their child life. I call that murder by omission and I think the courts do as well.

In Eden, I see God doing the same to A & E by withholding what would save them. The tree of life.

If your child is suffering at your feet with a peanut allergic reaction and you put a lock on the medicine chest where the antidote is and he dies. Have you murdered him?
Damned right you have. Would you think that the right and moral thing to do? I hope not so why do you think it was the right thing for God to do? Does that sound like God usual justice of an eye for an eye?
No. It is murder for a minor infraction. For God's sake. Think before dogma like the bible tells you to do.

Love, human to human, must have ongoing deeds and works to be alive. Without these, love is dead.

Love, God to human, must also have ongoing works and deeds. If God is alive, he must and would express his love with viable and recognizable actions.

If we cannot see these acts on God’s part --- and you agree that love must be expressed somehow with works and deeds, ----does that mean that God does not love or that he is dead?

In part I do agree, what I want to know, is the nonbeliever able to see the works of love from God when they do not recognize He is real, I do not see how, I see His works in my life, even when other Christians may not, so how could a nonbeliever see God's loving work.

Now you are showing your lack of faith.

Proverbs 3:12
For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Leave that to God and worry about your own soul. If you cannot save you by recognizing that God does not lose any souls, you cannot help others. Physician heal thyself.

Your salvation depends on not calling evil good and good evil and I see you calling evil good because you do not understand how to read your bible. It can lead you to apotheosis the same way it helped me push mine but you have to put thought before dogma. Not after.

Regards
DL

[/quote]

The only thing I can say about you and what you spew out of your mouth, ridiculous.