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RE: Logic problem: The founding principles of the U.S. and Christianity.
February 3, 2012 at 2:36 pm
(February 3, 2012 at 4:51 am)CliveStaples Wrote: Quote:They want it not so other creeds can stand as equals to them, they wanted so they can pursue their own agenda of atavistic dominance without scrutiny from other creeds.
Right, "atavistic dominance" in the sense of "trying to persuade other people to agree with them". At least for the overwhelming majority of Christians. Remember who Jefferson wrote the "separation of church and state" letter to. It was a religious group, and Jefferson was trying to reassure them.
Personally, I don't see anything in the Bible telling me that I should oppose the First Amendment. I'd note that the approach Jesus, his apostles, and the various other New Testament evangelists took was not to advocate for coercive government action, but to talk, persuade, teach, and minister. If there's a good argument that the Biblical model of conversion is coercion, I'd like to see it, because the notion strikes me as plainly false.
Christianity is coercive, even if those advocating it do not intend to be. Sadly they often do, and so I can list just about any sort of distasteful coercion you care to imagine as being leverged in service of the christian faith. These are terrible things done by terrible people, you might say (which would be true). Neverless, had these people merely preached the gospel without taking any action whatsoever they would still be leaning heavily on coercion by fear and ignorance. So you can take your pick between the evils done, or the evils inherent, but either way, it's coercion.
Or any of the more specific examples from american politics recently.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Logic problem: The founding principles of the U.S. and Christianity.
February 4, 2012 at 1:56 am
Christianity is a militant religion, perhaps even more so than Islam. Just look at all the carnage left behind done in the name of a "Convert or Die" attitude. Any Christain belief is inherently antagonistic toward science and reason. The Rennasaince finally dragged Europe out of the Dark Ages where Christianity reigned supreme in it's practice of selling indulgences to bribe Kings and mass torture of anyone who might have been a "heretic". Jesus Christ violates the very first commandment which says there shall be no IDOLS placed before me. The Christian Bible is a total contradiction that places the believer in the same sad, angry state. "God" is external, not internal. "God" is a strict father figure, not a motherly love. Jesus is a pathetic victim that which modern man aspires to be like??? Fudge that! The Buddha shows a much saner and internal way, into the light of awareness!
You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.
There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting.
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RE: Logic problem: The founding principles of the U.S. and Christianity.
February 4, 2012 at 5:13 am
(February 4, 2012 at 1:56 am)Bgood Wrote: Christianity is a militant religion, perhaps even more so than Islam.
I see. So, as far as you're concerned, the essence is "My dad can kick your dad's ass!" 
See? Theology is very simple, basically. 
Kid's stuff, actually. As you demonstrate.
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RE: Logic problem: The founding principles of the U.S. and Christianity.
February 4, 2012 at 5:22 am
You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.
There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting.
Buddha
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RE: Logic problem: The founding principles of the U.S. and Christianity.
February 4, 2012 at 5:31 am
(February 4, 2012 at 5:22 am)Bgood Wrote: What is your point?
It's right there, in my post, buddy.
PG advisory.
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RE: Logic problem: The founding principles of the U.S. and Christianity.
February 4, 2012 at 2:06 pm
A conversion system that claims you are born on your way to eternal torture and that you can only be saved by becoming a slave to one specific being isn't coercion? What is it then, a polite suggestion?
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RE: Logic problem: The founding principles of the U.S. and Christianity.
February 4, 2012 at 6:10 pm
(February 4, 2012 at 2:06 pm)RW_9 Wrote: A conversion system that claims you are born on your way to eternal torture and that you can only be saved by becoming a slave to one specific being isn't coercion? What is it then, a polite suggestion?
How about a song and dance? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oppHeMlaLVM
I have studied the Bible and the theology behind Christianity for many years. I have been to many churches. I have walked the depth and the breadth of the religion and, as a result of this, I have a lot of bullshit to scrape off the bottom of my shoes. ~Ziploc Surprise
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RE: Logic problem: The founding principles of the U.S. and Christianity.
February 4, 2012 at 11:10 pm
(February 4, 2012 at 6:10 pm)Ziploc Surprise Wrote: How about a song and dance?
Bleeeeeeh, unwashed 'men' in rough brown bags? No thanks!
I'll wait for the Rockettes!
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RE: Logic problem: The founding principles of the U.S. and Christianity.
February 4, 2012 at 11:18 pm
If the USA was founded on CXhristian princeiples then people wouldn't have freedom of religion.
The different Christian groups would just have been persecuting and attacking each other.
The genocide of the Indians was a pretty Christian enterprise you could say the country was based on, but the US constitution really isn't.
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RE: Logic problem: The founding principles of the U.S. and Christianity.
February 4, 2012 at 11:39 pm
(February 4, 2012 at 11:18 pm)Xavier Wrote: If the USA was founded on CXhristian princeiples then people wouldn't have freedom of religion.
The different Christian groups would just have been persecuting and attacking each other.
The genocide of the Indians was a pretty Christian enterprise you could say the country was based on, but the US constitution really isn't.
^^Ya, know this brings up a good point. I guess those heathen (note the sarcasm here) Native Americans kind of were in the way of the "manifest destony" of the United States.
A quote from a history blog: "courageous pioneers believed that America had a divine obligation to stretch the boundaries of their noble republic to the Pacific Ocean" -no mention of all those people in between. I guess if they aren't Christian and they aren't strong enough to defend themselves against you they don't count.
I have studied the Bible and the theology behind Christianity for many years. I have been to many churches. I have walked the depth and the breadth of the religion and, as a result of this, I have a lot of bullshit to scrape off the bottom of my shoes. ~Ziploc Surprise
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