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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 9, 2012 at 3:28 pm
(February 9, 2012 at 3:07 pm)Rhythm Wrote: @Genk, so, not graded, but only reached after certain level? That's a difficult idea to comprehend....Something that has no "grades" but is determined by "levels". How have you determined that some animals have free will and some do not if the criteria have not yet been established btw?
Picture it like the concept of threshold energy in chemistry. Two chemicals require a certain minimum amount of energy to react. While heating up the chemicals, you are gradually increasing their energy level, but the reaction takes place only after a particular level is reached.
The gradation in consciousness across species can be considered sinilar to that. Free-will cannot occur upto a certain level of consciousness and is possible only after that level is reached.
(February 9, 2012 at 3:07 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (*In case you were wondering I'm of the opinion that free will is just something we've made up, (criteria created to suit a conclusion already reached))
The theistic concept of "free-will" does not sit well with me. There is too much spiritual mumbo-jumbo tied to it. I prefer the capacity to make rational choices or volition. What is your opinion on that?
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 9, 2012 at 3:34 pm
(This post was last modified: February 9, 2012 at 3:34 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(February 9, 2012 at 3:28 pm)genkaus Wrote: Picture it like the concept of threshold energy in chemistry. Two chemicals require a certain minimum amount of energy to react. While heating up the chemicals, you are gradually increasing their energy level, but the reaction takes place only after a particular level is reached.
The gradation in consciousness across species can be considered sinilar to that. Free-will cannot occur upto a certain level of consciousness and is possible only after that level is reached.
You're still talking about more or less of this or that before you consider something to have "free will", Shells criticism applies. Essentially, this is saying "the more human and the less like an animal (what does that even mean?) the closer to free will. Well, again, anthropic bias.
Quote:The theistic concept of "free-will" does not sit well with me. There is too much spiritual mumbo-jumbo tied to it. I prefer the capacity to make rational choices or volition. What is your opinion on that?
My opinion of what, theistic concepts? Garbage start to finish in every case..lol.
My opinion of our ability (or my preference) to make rational choices? Our ability is seriously compromised but we try..lol.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 9, 2012 at 4:06 pm
(February 9, 2012 at 3:34 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You're still talking about more or less of this or that before you consider something to have "free will", Shells criticism applies. Essentially, this is saying "the more human and the less like an animal (what does that even mean?) the closer to free will. Well, again, anthropic bias.
No. I'm saying that the more conceptually capable a consciousness is, the closer to free will it is. I cannot help it if humans happen to be on the top of the scale.
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 9, 2012 at 4:09 pm
(This post was last modified: February 9, 2012 at 4:15 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
But you can help it if you realize you're rigging the game, which you are. Taking an ability that we've determined to be a very human ability and then using it as the criteria for a concept like "free will" is about as crooked as the house can get. Of course animals that are not human beings don't have free will if the criteria for free will can be reduced to being human animals.
(It may be that this is exactly the criteria.. but we have extremely strong reasons to suspect that we're engaging in a behavior that is also very human, and also most often completely wrong, all of this without being able to establish that there is such a thing as "free will" in the first place...btw)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 9, 2012 at 4:16 pm
Quote:Animals also kill for "no reason at all". Chimps became famous for this.
Just because the reason may not be discernible to us is not the same as saying they don't have one. In the clip, it seems to be a question of territoriality.
Now...if one of those chimps looked into the camera and said "'god' told me to kill" that would be something else.
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 9, 2012 at 4:24 pm
(This post was last modified: February 9, 2012 at 4:30 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Yeah, I just used that clip because it's one of the better videos of chimps getting nasty with each other. Chimp wars are still not very well understood, because even though they do sometimes fight over territory, sometimes they just come in, kill a few chimps, and go home (or even eat the losers). Ity's very hard to find a human behaviour that has no analogue in the rest of the animal kingdom. Our capacity for things like violence probably in't a very good way to differentiate us from other animals, as it kind of drops us into a club with alot of them. It's hard to argue that we're any "better" than any other animal, in that regard, or "worse".
(agree completely on the discernible reasons btw, it's just the common way of phrasing it we see so often. Our own reasons for doing things are often not discernible to us, lol)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 9, 2012 at 4:24 pm
(February 9, 2012 at 5:15 am)Forsaken Wrote: Therefore, if they were created by an almighty god, it had to be for a reason!
They're what's for dinner. Well, except for pigs and shrimp.
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 9, 2012 at 4:27 pm
(This post was last modified: February 9, 2012 at 4:33 pm by Anomalocaris.)
(February 9, 2012 at 4:06 pm)genkaus Wrote: (February 9, 2012 at 3:34 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You're still talking about more or less of this or that before you consider something to have "free will", Shells criticism applies. Essentially, this is saying "the more human and the less like an animal (what does that even mean?) the closer to free will. Well, again, anthropic bias.
No. I'm saying that the more conceptually capable a consciousness is, the closer to free will it is. I cannot help it if humans happen to be on the top of the scale.
Based on what do you say the more conceptually capable, the more genuinely free are the will? It seems to me that the more conceptually capable, the more might be the capacity to conceptualizing a will as being free. But that does not actually make the will free.
It takes quite a bit of power of conceptualization to coneptualize the sky as a dome sitting over a flat earth, and this concept may even have some degree of explanatory power, but that does not make the concept correct.
(February 9, 2012 at 4:16 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Now...if one of those chimps looked into the camera and said "'god' told me to kill" that would be something else.
Never saw any of the El Queda videos?
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 9, 2012 at 4:31 pm
(February 9, 2012 at 4:16 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Just because the reason may not be discernible to us is not the same as saying they don't have one. In the clip, it seems to be a question of territoriality.
I'm not convinced that people kill for "no reason" either. We may not understand another's reason, or it may not be rational, but there's a reason nonetheless.
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 9, 2012 at 4:32 pm
Cmon now, insulting people that can't defend themselves?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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