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Do you trust people enough to not have any religion?
#11
RE: Do you trust people enough to not have any religion?
Religion is used to excuse and facilitate bad deeds.

If you look had enough in religious texts you can find licence for almost any act OR it is not mentioned so not the text is not 'against' it.




You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.

Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.




 








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#12
RE: Do you trust people enough to not have any religion?
(February 21, 2012 at 11:46 am)Voltair Wrote: It is a weird catch 22 for me but perhaps I am being unfair as I used to be religious and now that I am not I still have morality. However I also know that many people even inside of religion aren't the most moral so without any religion how much worse would they be? I was just wondering what your guys thoughts were on this.

There's no question at all that some people are being restrained by religion from doing evil things. In fact, there are many Christians who stupidly use this as an argument for their religion. They say, "Well, if there was no God why should I care? I could go out and murder, steal and rape all I want"

This suggests that this is what they'd choose to do on their own if there was no God. That's pretty sad.

So are the Christians who are in heaven like that? Are they just murders, rapists, and thieves, restraining themselves for all of eternity just to win the prize of eternal life and avoid eternal punishment?

That would be both sad, and disgusting.

Like you, I realized that my moral values would not change if I were not religious. In fact, I actually have higher moral values without the religion. The religion itself was forcing me to have immoral values. Like supporting the fact that biblical God created, condones and supports male-chauvinism via his curse on Eve during the fall from grace in Genesis 3:16.

There are also many other immoral concepts condoned by this religion that I totally disagree with.

So the religion was actually bringing my moral values down and contaminating something that could be much better.

I haven't become a complete secular atheist after having trashed the Hebrew hate cult. I still believe in a mystical spiritual essence to the world at least along the lines of Taoism and some other forms of Mystical philosophies. Those spiritual philosophies do not require that I become an immoral person to believe in them.

But you are right, many Christians themselves confess that without their belief in the Hebrew God they would do horrible despicable things. So clearly many Christians have no desire to be a moral person on their own if they did not believe in the Hebrew God.

As far as trusting humans in general. I don't. There are good humans, and humans who apparently like to do hateful hurtful things. It doesn't require religion to make a person nasty.

However, when religious people do nasty things in the name of a God that's truly disgusting and Christians are infamous for that throughout history.

Stephen Weinberg said it very elegantly, "There are good people and there are bad people, but it takes religion to make good people do bad things".

And that is so true!

In fact, this is one reason why I flushed the hateful Hebrew mythology down the toilet. To continue to support it would require that I, as a good person, support bad things. (i.e. the hateful lies of the Hebrew Hate Cult)

Just supporting that hateful religion is a bad thing. So why should I as a good person lower myself to do such a disgusting thing?
Christian - A moron who believes that an all-benevolent God can simultaneously be a hateful jealous male-chauvinistic pig.
Wiccan - The epitome of cerebral evolution having mastered the magical powers of the universe and is in eternal harmony with the mind of God.
Atheist - An ill-defined term that means something different to everyone who uses it.
~~~~~
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
Clearly Jesus (a fictitious character or otherwise) will forgive people if they merely know not what they do
For the Bible Tells us so!
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#13
RE: Do you trust people enough to not have any religion?
Good points guys I was probably over-reacting yet again Tongue Though to what abbra said its their statements of "I would do such and such" that make me worry. But perhaps these people are in of themselves the kind to be murders/thieves/rapists and just happen to, for whatever reason, have landed in religion and thus be restrained.

At the same time as you guys have pointed out many people inside of religion do just the same so perhaps it really doesn't matter. Usually pieces of shit will be pieces of shit regardless of faith. Just nice to hear other people have more faith in humanity.
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#14
RE: Do you trust people enough to not have any religion?
(February 21, 2012 at 12:12 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I think you have the problem completely reversed, my friend. I worry far more about the ones who hear voices in their heads than the ones who don't.

I don't get those last 2 photos.
"Sisters, you know only the north; I have traveled in the south lands. There are churches there, believe me, that cut their children too, as the people of Bolvangar did--not in the same way, but just as horribly. They cut their sexual organs, yes, both boys and girls; they cut them with knives so that they shan't feel. That is what the Church does, and every church is the same: control, destroy, obliterate every good feeling. So if a war comes, and the Church is on one side of it, we must be on the other, no matter what strange allies we find ourselves bound to."

-Ruta Skadi, The Subtle Knife
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#15
RE: Do you trust people enough to not have any religion?
I think there had been much more atrocities commited in the name of religions than anything else.
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#16
RE: Do you trust people enough to not have any religion?
(February 21, 2012 at 9:26 pm)AthiestAtheist Wrote:
(February 21, 2012 at 12:12 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I think you have the problem completely reversed, my friend. I worry far more about the ones who hear voices in their heads than the ones who don't.

I don't get those last 2 photos.

Nutty muslims and nutty jews.

I try not to discriminate against idiots.
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#17
RE: Do you trust people enough to not have any religion?
Actually,i have the opinion that religion makes it difficult for people to behave morally.
[Image: pastafarian.png]
“Democracy is the road to Socialism.''
-Karl Marx

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#18
RE: Do you trust people enough to not have any religion?
(February 21, 2012 at 3:58 pm)Abracadabra Wrote: But you are right, many Christians themselves confess that without their belief in the Hebrew God they would do horrible despicable things.

Yes, it is disturbing but my suspicion is that an apostate will normally go through a gradual process. He/she will initially be constrained by his religious hang-over and subsequently by his growing sense of humanity. I have no doubts in my mind that the average atheist shows far more love, understanding and empathy than the average bible toting Christian.

I don't think we need to fear apostasy, we need to encourage it and show that freethinkers are not the hateful people that he/she has been taught. Unfortunately, there are a few insane people who would do wicked things if not retrained by their religion but too few to keep me awake at night.
A sensible man should not demand of me, or hope that when we mention a subject, we shall make a complete exposition of it. - Maimonides
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#19
RE: Do you trust people enough to not have any religion?
Quote:This suggests that this is what they'd choose to do on their own if there was no God. That's pretty sad.

So are the Christians who are in heaven like that? Are they just murders, rapists, and thieves, restraining themselves for all of eternity just to win the prize of eternal life and avoid eternal punishment?

When they say things like that, it does come across that they would rape and murder if they didn't think there was a god or afterlife. That they really do have it in them to commit such vile acts. The moment someone talks like that I reckon I should take their names down and alert the police. I couldn't bring myself to harm others. Especially forced sex and the like. I prefer to use my reason and intelligence.

Can you be called 'moral' if you did good simply because you're afraid of the consequences if you did the opposite? Or that you'll be rewarded if you do good? Don't think so. I do good because I am a social animal. I by nature care for others. I stand by principles such as live and let live. Treat others as you will like to be treated. No higher authority required. No threats of punishment required. No reward required.
What restrains us from committing atrocities is our social and ethical nature. Mankind thrives when united. Those who do commit atrocities are known as psychopaths. Those with some kind of mental disorder. We have asylums and prisons for such mentally unstable people.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.

Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.

You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
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#20
RE: Do you trust people enough to not have any religion?
It's like economics, all the action is on the margin. People who really want to do bad things but refrain because of their religious beliefs are probably likely to do more bad things if they give up their religion. That's probably not a lot of people, though. Anyway, it's not atheism we should be trying to convince them of, it's that there is value in critical thinking. I suspect critical thinking is more conducive to moral behavior than theism is.
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