Whats even attractive about Christianity anyway that people want to stay in ignorance

[CriticalThinker]

Christianity appeals to me because I want to be saved

'Saved' from what?

From hell.

---

Christianity appeals to me because I want to be saved - that's just about it. Also, the stuff about boring music and rituals and sermons don't actually matter, all you have to do is follow Jesus and love your neighbor, your God, and yourself.

By "I want to be saved" you of course must mean, "I don't want to die". That's what you mean right? Follow Jesus and you are granted eternal life right? But aside from the fact that all religion is fairly falsifiable, what makes you so sure that, assuming there is a God, you've chosen the right one? Allah will give you eternal life too. What makes Jesus a better choice other that the fact that you've been more exposed to the Christian faith more than the Islamic one?

Again, I believe in the one true God because I believe in him. Nobody can proove God exists, so I'm not gonna try. If you don't get it, that's fine, you won't be saved then - I really wish you could get it though.

[Voltair]

People who look but haven't found God were either mislead by others (sadly) or looked in the wrong place--themselves. The true God takes a humbling of the mind with the help of the Holy Spirit. In order to find God you need to take off your reason hat and take a leap of faith. We, as humans, look for religions that benefit us personally. Instead, close your eyes and ask Jesus to reveal himself to you. Read the Gospels. The combination of God's help and your application will show you the truth if you wish to find it. There is no single statement I can give you to convince you why all other worldly religions are wrong. You have to find it yourself, but I'll tell you now that it has nothing to do with your natural tendencies. All fake religions are law-oriented, meaning the follower has to earn their way to heaven by doing good works. It is our natural desire to want to earn our way, because then we can take the credit. Christianity is different, for Romans 3:23 says, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." And Romans 6:23 adds, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life." Wages are what you earn. But since we have all sinned we can never do enough to reach heaven on our own. Knowing this, God came down in the form of a man. He paid the punishment for our sins on the cross. He died in our place. And that is another difference in Christianity. Not only does it promote relying on another's grace instead of your own strength, it shows how much God is seeking us. We are the lost sheep. He is the shepherd actively pursuing us. Ask a follower of any other religion and they'll say they are concerned with who else joins. The few beliefs that include gathering followers do so for selfish purposes. Mormons think they need to do it to be saved (and get their own planet). The Quran tells Muslims to conquer countries and make followers by force. Christian missionaries evangelize for as many people to know Christ's love as possible.

To find God I have to take a leap of faith. Does this mean that you do not truly know if you have found God? Again the problem with throwing off reasoning and taking that leap of faith is any religion could say that. So perhaps the reason you are not a Muslim is you aren't willing to take the leap of faith that is necessary? I have not investigated all world religions but for you say all of them are based on fake laws that are worked base makes it sound like you are saying you have.

Christianity is not technically work based although if you don't do good things your faith is dead so in a sense it is work based. Your salvation isn't based on good works but do you still go to heaven if you sit and warm a pew your whole life? If you say no then you are contradicting the idea that salvation and works are not connected. If you say yes then you are saying complacency is perfectly acceptable and will not be punished by God.

Christian missionaries also do what they do for partially selfish reasons. Or are you going to say that Christian missionaries feel no obligation by God to do what they do? Again with the complacency idea do you think that a Christian who does nothing will receive the reward of heaven? Also I would like you to tell me how Buddhism, the resident Buddhist here can answer this better, gains by getting converts? I also think that you probably haven't read the Koran very much because I am pretty sure it doesn't just simply say "force them to be Muslim". Maybe it does but I doubt it.

Also many Christians do what they do to avoid punishment. Take away the punishment of Hell and how many loyal workers would you have? Sorry but doing something for self preservation does not make you selfless or good in of itself. Are there Christians who are absolutely pure in their motives? I believe that there are but Christianity is not as pure as you are painting it out to be as a whole. Now I understand that no one is perfect but it is partially due to how the religion is set up. You follow Christ OR you get punished. When something is setup that way it is bound to create followers out of fear. People may very well love God as well but there is a good part of them that does it out of fear as well. God couldn't simply have people choose to love him, he had to threaten them. I find that interesting since one of the basic concepts of love is being able to choose without being punished.

It would be like me falling in love with a girl and telling her that she didn't have to be with me while holding a gun to her head. She does not have to be with me but if she doesn't she dies. Sure she can CHOOSE to die but those two options are hardly equal because I am using coercion. God uses a much larger form of coercion in the form of eternal punishment, whatever your definition of Hell is it is still supposed to awful.

The only reason we are lost in the first place is God CHOSE to dictate what he did as sin and he CHOSE to deliver the harshest form of punishment available. If God did not choose this then he is not all powerful and something is greater than him. So God CHOSE to set things up and so we are therefore lost. I don't feel too good about a figure who set up the problem in the first place but then says "Hey I know you were doomed to this and I made you to where you would be.... but good for you that I decided to forgive you for it anyway". The idea of sin/punishment/God's wrath in the first place seems so much at odds with what makes sense.

Also Jesus dying on the cross wasn't really a sacrifice. Sacrifice means you actually have to lose something and Jesus knew that he was going to be fine. Jesus may have lost equality with God but I really don't see that as a huge sacrifice because he still didn't really suffer. He lived 30 years or so and died a painful death that OTHER people have died as well. What was so unique about his pain other than his supposed deity?

Logically, either one religion is right or they are all wrong. There is only one truth and naturally people create all kinds of other ‘pseudo-truths’ to win fame and money. Even atheists believe their atheism is the only truth. To say we should dismiss all religions because there are so many to choose from is like saying science has many theories for one phenomenon so they must all be wrong.

I completely agree either one is right or all are wrong due to the idea of contradiction. As far as there being one truth I would agree in the sense that either the sun exists or it doesn't exist, not both. As far as other people simply creating pseudo truths for fame in money I would like to go back to Buddhism. How many super rich Buddhist monks do you know? In addition to that I was speaking to a Chinese student here who told me that there are monks who believe they going to Hell to fill the places there so others don't have to.

So you have a group of religious people who deny themselves many pleasures in life AND believe that they will sacrifice their souls so others don't have to suffer. Sorry but that right there is FAR above any love/sacrifice Christians can offer. No Christian believes they can give their very soul for the sake of others and if they did , would they? Granted though the Apostle Paul mentioned such an idea in scripture.

Look at the founder of any major religion and examine their motives. Muhammad gained fame and power through war, as well as the right to his followers' wives. Hinduism makes a caste system with priests at the top. Every faith has a selfish motive behind it but Christianity. All but one of the Christian apostles were martyred, and many more lost or feared for their lives. Instead of creating a system where one group of people is more powerful or influential, the Bible calls for a brotherhood of equals who work as the "body of Christ" to spread Jesus' love and news of the resurrection. Philosophically, thinkers have a hard time reasoning how a cruel God could create such beauty in creation and why we still exist in a balance of goodness and sin, as well as how a group of gods could function together to produce an operating world with one moral code. That leaves a single, loving God, and Christians call him Jesus.

You mentioned two faiths for your example and left out many other religious beliefs. Again Christianity's motivation is not pure either as it is the avoidance of torment and the gains of ultimate happiness in paradise. Do Christian's love people? I suspect many do but there is still the punishment/reward system in place. Christianity is not a selfless religion because it was setup with the do good and get eternal bliss or do bad and suffer torment. It is not fair to point out other religious motivations when Christianity's base message is come to Jesus to be saved from damnation. It is about AVOIDANCE and GAIN along with the idea of helping others. You cannot separate the above two though because they are stressed in scripture.

The martyrdom of the apostles seems to based on writings of people that lived way after the supposed death of the apostles anyway. So how do we know they are not repeating rumors and hearsay? We know James was martyred through Josephus and he was contemporary to the time. You mention the idea of equality and brotherhood. Even if that were unique to Christianity it does not make it any more likely to be true. I would again ask how much equality there is in a Buddhist temple or other religions. I seriously doubt you have investigated the thousands of religions out there and neither have I so you no other religion has that equality doesn't really prove it true.

As far as struggling with the idea of bad and beauty existing I don't know how much of a struggle there really is about that. Perhaps it is a struggle among Christian philosophers. As far as us existing in a balance of good and sin I am not sure what you mean by that. You impose the idea of sin on what you see as bad perhaps and that may mean you are saying a balance of good and evil. I don't really see how that balance proves anything as there are many forces at work to check what is seen as evil. I will say it straight, I seriously doubt without laws/protection/fear of loss that that balance would be maintained with JUST Christianity. Unless of course that Christianity was militant like the catholic church of old but then again it is force not faith keeping the peace then.

Also just because people struggle with ideas does not immediately default your position as the true one. You would still have to defend your own position even if all the other proposed ones fell apart it doesn't mean yours doesn't get scrutinized.

Even with the miraculous signs, many people didn't believe. All spiritual forces were more visible then, including Satan's, making it more difficult to discern between the two. God doesn't currently do obvious miracles because he believes we have enough to go on as it is. He created nature; he doesn't have to fight it to accomplish his will. He also has a new way of communicating-- the Holy Spirit. Before Christ, only prophets spoke out about God. Now God's spirit is in everyone, and we are able to witness to nonbelievers using the words he gives us. We are no longer restricted to learning from prophets and miraculous signs, but from every other Christian on earth. In addition to this, we have a full completed Bible in most every house. Back then that had a few scrolls written by the prophets, and the Torah. Some would argue it is easier to believe now. Whether that's true or not does not matter. What matters is we have enough. God is seeking us. Seek him back, and you'll find the evidence more overwhelming than you ever imagined.

He may believe we have enough to go on as is but the scene is changing if I am not mistaken. The youth of our days are no longer satisfied with "because I say so and because it just is that way". They are seeking answers and are finding that in many cases there may not be any answers. So God's way of doing things may start to crumble in which people may scream the last days are here and Jesus will return soon. However it wouldn't be the first time people say it and find out it doesn't happen and it won't be the last.

As far as learning from other Christian's etc that has NOTHING to do with proving that is actually true and that God is real. I could act in such a way to where people couldn't believe how nice/helpful/benevolent/self sacrificing I was. I could then say "It was the golden fleece that taught me to do so". My actions don't prove with any likelihood that the golden fleece did anything or even exists just that I attribute my actions to it. What is interesting is you say seek God. I have seen this supposed evidence and examined it. I would like for you to propose a piece of evidence I have not considered.

I am talking of general categories of course because I have not heard of every single little archaeological find or something else someone touts as proving something. Around 8 months ago or so I lost my faith due to asking the hard questions and going where the answers led me. I remember even praying to God during my times of struggle to show me if he was there. I will say he did answer me question by not answering me. His lack of action helped prove his non-existence and I could call him out even now and he would still fall silent. He would fall silent most likely because either he is not the Christian God or because, as I suspect, he wasn't there in the first place.

The evidence is very underwhelming and usually deals with some form of speculation/attribution instead of actual proof. I do welcome a discussion about these proofs if you like though. I even wrote a 34 page document explaining my views that I can send you if you like that deals with a lot of these proofs. If God is seeking me then he may want to seek a little harder because his presence has gone unnoticed if he is there. You may say I am simply closing my eyes and I would say to you prove it.

And what would you say if you wrote a diary about your flat tire becoming full (because of a pump you don't mention), and people 2000 years from today said, "That doesn't make sense. He must have made it up." Who are we to presume we know better than the people who actually lived in the time of Christ? Are we going to call all the 1st century Christians fooled by something that happened right under their noses? The number of converts must have exploded for a reason, and it couldn't have been because of a long-developed legend.

First of all with you example of a flat tire it is possible that I made it up. However tires being able to be flat is something that can readily be proved in reality. However how would you like to demonstrate that miracles/spiritual beings can happen/exist? Also even if I did lie the question is have their been flat tires before and is it possible to have flat tires? Yes to both so even if I did lie it doesn't really matter.

If you are going to argue that the ancients simply knew better than you better believe in the Egyptian God's too. You also should believe any ancient story that the ancients believed. After all who are you to presume that you know better than those ancients? Your standards you are applying are inconsistent, if you are going to apply them then apply them universally. I am not saying that to attack you but to point out an inconsistency. Just because rapid converts happen doesn't make something true either. Also volume of converts doesn't either unless you are going to argue that an Indian guru named Sathya Sai Baba really was who he said he was and really did miraculous works.

I would wikipedia him if you want to know more. This guy had people convinced he could do miraculous works etc and no he wasn't a Christian. By the way he died in April of 2011 so this is very recent. So do I think that people who were highly superstitious, largely illiterate, etc 2000 years ago could be fooled/mistaken? Well do I think people who are highly superstitious, largely illiterate (I think), about one year ago could be mistaken? Absolutely to both of those questions. You are willing to trust the Christians because they lived closer to the events but unwilling to trust ANY other theological doctrine that is outside of Christianity. Your standards must be applied universally in that sense or you are just picking and choosing.

[The Grand Nudger]

Again, I believe in the one true God because I believe in him. Nobody can proove God exists, so I'm not gonna try. If you don't get it, that's fine, you won't be saved then - I really wish you could get it though.

I hope you're ready to be disappointed.

[Undeceived]

Again the problem with throwing off reasoning and taking that leap of faith is any religion could say that.

2 Peter 2:1-3
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Every sport could claim it's football, but that's to be expected because of the money and fame football has. People create religions which pretend to be true and copy Christian principles. Their scriptures change. Much of Muhammad's sayings were written down 400 years after the fact. It has changed to become more acceptable to the people. I can't give you one foolproof evidence, but investigate the Bible and try to find errors in it. Even references to accurate science are made before the actual discoveries (http://www.pb.org/pbdocs/bibleac.html). In contrast, the Quran makes claims of a geocentric universe (21:33). If you eliminated evolution, tell me which religion's creation theory you would go with. Many don't have one, and the ones that do are usually obscure human-dreamt ideas like the earth on the back of a turtle. The most logical are Judaism, Islam and Christianity. Christianity is the fulfilling of Judaism. Islam is a false addition (and alteration of some OT stories) by one man with no witnesses. I think it's no coincidence that the Christian forum is the most heavily posted on this site. People believe it has the most stock, and consequently attack it harder.

Christianity is not technically work based although if you don't do good things your faith is dead so in a sense it is work based.

If you have faith you will do good things in response to God's gift. You can tell if someone has faith by their works, but that doesn't mean the works come first. Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

Christian missionaries also do what they do for partially selfish reasons.

True, but that's not what the Bible calls for, or what Jesus calls for. You can tell a lot about a religion by its founder. Muhammad warred conflicting tribes. Jesus preached love and selflessness. We can't grade a religion based on its followers. As to a Christian who does nothing, they can reach heaven too. The thief next to Jesus on the cross gave his life to Christ just before he died.

About eastern religions wikipedia says, "Hinduism has no conversion/reconversion rituals whatsoever—one is free to choose any religion he/she wants, follow any philosophy or belief one fancies and worship any god in a manner he/she deems fit. Religion for a Hindu is merely a path to a universal destination." I believe Buddhism is similar. Buddha mentions spreading his ideas, but their religion doesn't have a particular salvation to achieve. Mental or spiritual enlightenment is all eastern religions offer. Buddhism is technically atheist, so it also lacks answers to many of the big questions, such as where we came from.

Also many Christians do what they do to avoid punishment.

Isn't that sad? Jesus preaches love, love, love, and people remain invested in their selfish desires. Do you have a son or daughter? If you do, you'll know that the best way to get them to do the right thing is to develop a loving relationship in which they will do what you advise simply out of love and trust. If you develop a fear system they'll find ways around it and sneer at your authority behind your back.

It would be like me falling in love with a girl and telling her that she didn't have to be with me while holding a gun to her head.

God's not holding the gun, we are. We sin. God has to stay true to his nature, which is to keep justice. But luckily for us he is also loving, so he sends his son to take our criminal sentence for us. Either we accept it or we don't. We have free will, and it seems many people don't have a problem choosing death.

Sacrifice means you actually have to lose something and Jesus knew that he was going to be fine.

Think about what he did. It's like us sculpting a world of clay men designed to get along perfectly and love each other and have each other's backs. But it wouldn't be love if they were forced to do it, so they have free will. They start sculpting knives of their own and murdering each other and telling lies and stealing. You're saddened, so you put yourself into the frail bodies of one of these and live in the mayhem they created for 30 long years. You resist temptations they produced. Then you let them kill you. On top of all this, you bear the guilt of every one of them on the cross. Jesus said, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" indicating that the burden of sin was so heavy God couldn't even look upon it. It's hard to imagine the agony of an intangible thing, but it must have been great.

The martyrdom of the apostles seems to based on writings of people that lived way after the supposed death of the apostles anyway.

A list of some early martyrs: http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/missions/miss7.htm
It's well known that Nero targeted Christians, and so did all the Roman emperors up to Constantine. They were supposedly threats to his rule.

The youth of our days are no longer satisfied with "because I say so and because it just is that way".

Christianity is growing overall in the world, particularly in eastern nations like China and Muslim-ruled countries. It's a myth that a new burst of reason made a hit on Christianity; it's just shifting. Many people point to the fall of Christianity in the US as synonymous with its fall as a world power, and see a correlation between the new morality in China and its growth. An interesting fact about China is the Christian movement began grass-roots after missionaries were outlawed.

"It was the golden fleece that taught me to do so"

Equating God to an object with definite qualities is a poor analogy. Christians don't define God as a directly-observable, finite or unthinking creature. The definition of God is being apart from time and space. Bringing him into time and space is a way of dwarfing him to a size you can understand, yes, but it is a poor argumentative tactic and a provable logical fallacy.

A video about Sai Baba's deceptions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yblhsr1O4IQ Take a look at the links below too.
Jesus, on the other hand, does not use cheap tricks. He showed he was the lord of time by turning water into wine, and lord of space by healing the official's son from a distance. He also appeared to 500+ people after being brutally killed on the cross. Large numbers of converts came only after the resurrection--the whole Christian faith is based on it. All the believers thought Jesus resurrected, and even secular historians largely agree he lived and died on the cross. They also agree that the tomb is empty. How do you fake a resurrection? The Romans were expert executioners--if they failed, their own lives were terminated.

You'd like me to propose new evidence. Let's start with science. Rick Larson used a professional astronomy program to determine the stars' formation at the time of Jesus' birth. It included one star (Jupiter) coming into conjunction with several others, touching the Leo and Virgin constellations, and creating what was probably the brightest star in the history of human civilization. What's more, it would have appeared to be in the west at Jesus' birth (to Magi from Persia) and then appeared to be slightly south from Herod's palace where the Magi stopped first. There was also a blood moon (lunar eclipse) on the afternoon Jesus died, visible from Israel (Joel 2:31 and Acts 2:20).
http://www.bethlehemstar.net/dance/dance.htm
http://www.bethlehemstar.net/day/day.htm
Since star patterns are predictable, it's easy to go back in time and see what the sky looked like when. No rebuttals have been attempted.

Creation is also grounds for the Christian God. Do you believe in Evolution? If so, on what evidence?

[Zen Badger]

Creation is also grounds for the Christian God. Do you believe in Evolution? If so, on what evidence?

Just that EVERY FUCKEN FIELD OF SCIENCE SUPPORTS IT!!!!!

Apart from that, not a lot I guess

For you to ask that question after everything that has presented here tends to suggest that you are either illiterate, obtuse or so fatuously caught up in the sound of your own bullshit that you can't see what everyone else writes.

About par for the course I suppose.

[The Grand Nudger]

Water into wine, and distance healing eh? Both cheap tricks. I can turn water into wine as well. I can also claim to heal people from a distance. Tell you what though, it gets even cheaper when I simply claim that someone has done these things, when I simply claim someone has lived to do them in the first place. There isn't anything cheaper than empty words.

Evidence?

[Zen Badger]

BTW, you need to prove jesus even existed first before you can start talking about his supposed "miracles".

[Voltair]

Back to the idea that Christianity/God is about love and it is sad that people follow it to avoid punishment. God defined sin in the first place and he is the one who decided what the punishment would be. God also designed man to be able to sin all supposedly in the idea of having people choose to love him. So God, knowing most men would not and therefore perish, created billions of people to have most of them suffer so that he could have the pleasure of a few of them loving him.

If God's "justice" is unavoidable than the loving thing for him to do was to never create men in the first place. However God created men to serve/love HIM and he decided it was acceptable for most of men to be created regardless of their fate so HE could get what HE wanted. Can it be selfish to create something just so it will love/worship you? Absolutely, creating something so that it will love me and tell me how wonderful I am is selfish and egotistical.

Many of Christianities pre-science ideas are probably being reinterpreted in light of scientific discoveries. Isn't it interesting that people who were so invested in scripture just missed that supposed "germ theory" reference in Leviticus. It is terribly convenient that when SCIENCE discovers something only THEN does Christianity supposedly reveal that it knew it first. Its terribly convenient that people only seem to realize those things after the fact.

You seem to be really bent on this idea that all other religions save Christianity have this big ulterior motive. You have also repeatedly ignored the ideas that Christianity is built in such a way to allow for just as many "selfish" desires. Again I would ask you if there wasn't punishment for sin would you sin? Although to be honest many things that are dictated as sin I, and other atheists, don't want to do anyway. In fact according to Christian standards we don't do anything too bad. However the idea is that any one thing sends you to the fryer which is why we need God according to Christianity. God is the one who is in control so therefore the only reason things are so nitpicky is HE designed it that way.

People can try whatever philosophical mind games they want but if God is truly all in control then the consequence of sin, the ability for man to sin, and everything else ultimately falls back on him. He has the power, the control, and the foreknowledge supposedly so he also has the responsibility in this case. Suffering, punishment, etc are all results of God's decisions and selfishness in the original creation of mankind.

As far as proving inconsistencies with the Bible goes I don't even need to go there and here is why. All of Christianities miraculous claims are contained only inside of scripture. Even some of its history such as herod's massacres, Israel's massive conquering, the mass exodus of slaves, the Egyptian army at the bottom of the red sea (save the fake chariot wheel they found the ONE fake one), Solomon's reign, and many others. Maybe the evidence was just destroyed etc but that is speculation. Maybe the evidence for Zeus was destroyed too. It is pure useless speculation.

The Bible's formation etc was done by the hands of men. You can say they were inspired but they were still men. More specifically the Bible you enjoy today has a long history with the Catholic church who we all know is completely interested in preserving only what is true. The Old Testament is really not ever going to be proven conclusively. As far as K.A. Kitchens reliability of the Old Testament goes he points out little snippets of things but I don't recall anything mind blowing about Israel.

You are right Christianity is gaining grounds in countries that are controlled, such as China, and countries where superstition and illiteracy is high I.E. Africa. I am not impressed by that especially after going on mission trips myself. We did medical missions where we did studies with people who chances are know very little information and some can't even read. It is not hard to convince someone in that state that the Bible is true especially if they are predisposed to superstitions etc. It is not because they are stupid it is due to information suppression. I believe it was Fredrick Douglass who said “Once you learn to read, you will be forever free.” China is notorious for controlling the flow of information anyway. By the way I think you are going to be hard pressed to prove that China's prosperity is due to religion. It is an economic success enjoyed by all of that business they do etc as far as I can tell anyway.

I am tired of hearing the "Christianity is leaving America so it is going down" idea. I really hope that the ECONOMIC forces that are at work don't crush America. It will also be nice if America bounces back and secularizes while still prospering. It will smack that ridiculous idea that being a Christian nation is what made America so prosperous. A lot of the business, industry, building structures, etc that made America prosperous were not exactly due to "Christianity".

By the way I completely agree with you that the Indian Guru's "miracles" would be easily disproven. The problem is you are telling me that Jesus miracles were real based SOLELY and ENTIRELY on the words of others and a book containing gospels written at least 20 years or so after Jesus supposed death. I never understood how Christian's say their faith is based in Jesus/God when without those other people mentioning it you would have NO knowledge of Jesus and maybe a concept of deity like other mythologies do. Take away scripture and see how self evident Jesus becomes. Christianity is a religion based on a written book not any special knowledge. They claim that their book is inspired by the divine but so far many of their proofs for this seem to reinterpreting things to meet the times, many broad assumptions, and a complete trust of ancient writers. Although their trust of ancient writers is inconsistent as they only apply that trust to the Christian writers while everyone else was just "greedy" or "deceptive" in their writings.

Of course in order for Christianity to be true these other people can't be right. I really get tired of watching Christian's assassinate the character of anyone who isn't in their boat. It is terribly dishonest, completely off base, and not able to be proven. You don't know the intents or those other people and if you base your idea of their intentions simply based on what the Bible tells you what if reality contradicted your beliefs? Would you, like William Lane Craig, throw it all out and bury your head in your beliefs? I don't think you can accept the idea of these people being honest while still believing Christianity. Remember when we talked about truth though? Truth is a concept not an entity and truth does not respect what any book says. If something is true it is true regardless of how loud some "inspired writer" screams.

If people can honestly/without bad intent/willing delusion come to the conclusion God does not exist then the Apostle Paul is wrong. If the Apostle Paul is wrong you lose most of Christianity since most of it is Pauline anyway. I understand that you are going to assassinate my character and others and it is irritating. However I understand that this is the ONLY way for you to keep your faith so in choosing between God and me you will assume I am mistaken. Thankfully I know why I am at where I am. I can know that I was HONEST and the fact that some ancient man screams I wasn't doesn't prove anything. My knowledge of my honesty helps me shoot holes in the Apostle Paul's statements so that I can know he was WRONG. I don't have to prove that to you because I can know that for myself.

Thankfully knowing I am honest doesn't require that you realize that I am.

[The Grand Nudger]

People who look but haven't found God were either mislead by others (sadly) or looked in the wrong place--themselves.

Where did you find god? If you found him exterior to yourself and present or somehow able to enact change or interact with any object in this known universe then surely you can just point me to that. If you found him within the pages of the bible then why does he not spring out of those same pages to atheists, or anyone of any other faith?

Where did you, find your god? I'm guessing you found it from within yourself.

[Cyberman]

You'd like me to propose new evidence. Let's start with science. Rick Larson used a professional astronomy program to determine the stars' formation at the time of Jesus' birth. It included one star (Jupiter) coming into conjunction with several others, touching the Leo and Virgin constellations, and creating what was probably the brightest star in the history of human civilization. What's more, it would have appeared to be in the west at Jesus' birth (to Magi from Persia) and then appeared to be slightly south from Herod's palace where the Magi stopped first. There was also a blood moon (lunar eclipse) on the afternoon Jesus died, visible from Israel (Joel 2:31 and Acts 2:20).
http://www.bethlehemstar.net/dance/dance.htm
http://www.bethlehemstar.net/day/day.htm
Since star patterns are predictable, it's easy to go back in time and see what the sky looked like when. No rebuttals have been attempted.

Indeed. Here's one of those no rebuttals:

http://atheistforums.org/thread-9105-pos...#pid196272

And here's part 2:

http://atheistforums.org/thread-9105-pos...#pid196486

You're welcome.