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RE: Richard Dawkins: I can't be sure God does not exist
February 25, 2012 at 11:17 am
(This post was last modified: February 25, 2012 at 11:18 am by Phil.)
(February 25, 2012 at 11:11 am)Rhythm Wrote: A not god. The deist god is a retreat from our claims of what gods are or where or could do or have done. It's an accomodationist's god, that is not a god at all in any way except by the insistence of those who call it a god to frame it as such. A functionally non-existent creature should deserve some measure of uncertainty, I think not. In any case, you've made a claim for the deist god (it's impossible to postualte a god without attaching a claim btw, try it). Show us the skyhook in the big bang or else we're just engaging in flights of fanciful imagination.
A deist god is a god.Where is a god defined as only a personal god? You can define it to be not a god if you want but that is the only way you can be 100% certain it doesn't exist. If you define a theist god as a god (which should be obvious), then you can't dismiss it with 100% certainty. Now why the fuck do you think I made a claim for any god? I was answering your fucking stupid question.
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RE: Richard Dawkins: I can't be sure God does not exist
February 25, 2012 at 11:20 am
(This post was last modified: February 25, 2012 at 11:24 am by The Grand Nudger.)
I understand, I'm just using your comments as the devils advocate. By what metrics would the deists god be a god? Notch up the similarities between it and our other concepts of god. I'm not trying to flame, but this is a huge issue in comparative mythology, the deist modification of claims of god completely divorcing the concept from it's origins and being on a consistent retreat (at least the western currents of deism). The position of deism in our founding fathers day, for example, was complete with what we would call "intelligent design" today. It's a god of the gaps argument, but very different from the concept that we attempted to convey with the word god. Deism fascinates me, immensely.
Long story short-at what point, when we are in the business of removing or winnowing god claims for whatever reason and approaching deism, are we left with nothing but the word "god"? Maybe a deist can illuminate me, would be a fun discussion.
(There are creative forces in superstitious thinking that are not gods...so creating the cosmos itself is not enough to warrant the classification)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Richard Dawkins: I can't be sure God does not exist
February 25, 2012 at 11:23 am
(February 25, 2012 at 11:20 am)Rhythm Wrote: I understand, I'm just using your comments as the devils advocate. By what metrics would the deists god be a god? Notch up the similarities between it and our other concepts of god. I'm not trying to flame, but this is a huge issue in comparative mythology, the deist modification of claims of god completely divorcing the concept from it's origins and being on a consistent retreat (at least the western currents of deism). The position of deism in our founding fathers day, for example, was complete with what we would call "intelligent design" today. It's a god of the gaps argument, but very different from the concept that we attempted to convey with the word god. Deism fascinates me, immensely. Where is god defined as ONLY a personal god that is active in human affairs?
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RE: Richard Dawkins: I can't be sure God does not exist
February 25, 2012 at 11:25 am
It doesn't have to be at all, I'm just asking you what your minimum bar for a god is.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Richard Dawkins: I can't be sure God does not exist
February 25, 2012 at 11:30 am
(February 25, 2012 at 11:25 am)Rhythm Wrote: It doesn't have to be at all, I'm just asking you what your minimum bar for a god is.
Since I don't believe in god (any god), I don't have a minimum requirement for a god. Tell me, why would an atheist even care about any "requirements" a god would or should have? As far as I'm concerned if someone (meaning a religious person or deist) claims they believe in something as god, then I have no choice but to accept what they say as the truth to them.
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RE: Richard Dawkins: I can't be sure God does not exist
February 25, 2012 at 11:32 am
(This post was last modified: February 25, 2012 at 11:33 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Well, sure, I can believe that the fork I'm holding is a god, but is it? I'm a big buff of gods, myth, and magic, so that's why it interests me (despite being a militant, confrontational, and aggressive anti-theist..lol) I'm not judging this god on the basis of belief, I'm attempting to approach it from the basis of reality.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Richard Dawkins: I can't be sure God does not exist
February 25, 2012 at 11:35 am
(February 25, 2012 at 11:32 am)Rhythm Wrote: Well, sure, I can believe that the fork I'm holding is a god, but is it? I'm a big buff of gods, myth, and magic, so that's why it interests me (despite being a militant, confrontational, and aggressive anti-theist..lol)
If you believe your fork is a god, it would be pretty arrogant of me to tell you that you can't believe that because I don't recognize it as a god. What I can do is tell you it's an idiotic belief but I still recognize it as a belief.
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RE: Richard Dawkins: I can't be sure God does not exist
February 25, 2012 at 11:37 am
(February 25, 2012 at 5:30 am)Forsaken Wrote: Did some research and found out that he said the same exact thing in his book, The God Delusion, 6 years ago. So this pretty much settles it. I was just about to post that, but I wanted to make sure that someone else said it first. That said, I can only wonder just how Christians and other theists are going to start mining that quote to claim that Dawkins "converted."
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RE: Richard Dawkins: I can't be sure God does not exist
February 25, 2012 at 11:44 am
Right, and I'm not telling a deist they can't believe. I'm simply wondering in what way the deists god is similar to other gods, and what ways it is different. It's difficult to articulate this in a compact way.
We have narratives of gods, everywhere. We have narratives of creative forces that are not gods, we have a wonderful buffet of superstitious narratives period. The current understanding of the subject is that gods are man made artifacts, and at the very least, vehicles for a common narrative (among other things).
Deism is a little different in that it is an ongoing process of removing the narratives from the vehicle. They become something like cautionary tales without the characters. Or fables that skip straight to the moral without the story. Well, if we're just talking about the gaps ion our knowledge (IE set it rolling and then went radio silent) there's a better word or explanation for that than "god".
We have never found any god that was not an artifact of humanity. Why should I be uncertain that this is what gods are? So I can bicker with a deist or theist for that centimeter of territory that means so much to them and nothing to me? If they want ground, at least demonstrate that the ground exists in the first place before we start shooting each other (conversationally) over it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Richard Dawkins: I can't be sure God does not exist
February 25, 2012 at 11:44 am
(February 25, 2012 at 11:37 am)Rev. Rye Wrote: I was just about to post that, but I wanted to make sure that someone else said it first. That said, I can only wonder just how Christians and other theists are going to start mining that quote to claim that Dawkins "converted."
You know I really seem to be missing something here. After Dawkins bus ads campaign (the banner said THERE PROBABLY IS NO GOD), I would have thought most atheists that have been atheists for over a year would be pretty familiar with this statement. Even more considering the supposed popularity of The God Delusion.
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