Richard Dawkins: I can't be sure God does not exist

[Epimethean]

And what good would it do to prove that a god existed if it were discovered to have had nothing to do with earth's-or man's creation and were utterly disinterested in the whole brouhaha.

[The Grand Nudger]

The mere proposal allows one to divorce themselves from the ridiculous garbage they simply cannot buy into whilst simultaneously permitting them (intellectually speaking) to hold those beliefs anyway, apparently. The deist's god is a goalpost on wheels with a motor attached and the believer at the helm.

[Phil]

And what good would it do to prove that a god existed if it were discovered to have had nothing to do with earth's-or man's creation and were utterly disinterested in the whole brouhaha.

It wouldn't do any good other than making deists satisfied with their belief.

[Whateverist]

I've often wondered what the least requirements might be for calling anything a 'god'. "Omnipotence", "eternality" and "omniscience" set the bar impossibly high. How about a critter that can do a couple things we can't do, lives enough longer than we do to have a significantly different perspective and who knows a hell of a lot by virtue of having lived so long. I don't think I want to make Her a mind reader but lets suppose our motives and intent are always perfectly obvious to her because she just reads people so well. While we're at it, lets say She has a Jedi's ability to go unnoticed by anyone she doesn't want to make her self known to. This allows her to go undetected by science since no scientist will perceive the evidence of her that is there unless she permits it. Is that a 'god'?

Lets face it, 'god' isn't a well defined term. No one knows, but why should we care? If someone claims to have had a 'close encounter' with a god I will in my heart of heart doubt them, but I needn't go overboard and claim what I don't in fact know to dissuade them. That would be dishonest and no, I can't be certain they are being dishonest. More likely they are experiencing some disconnect from reality but if they seem otherwise to have their wits about them I'm not going to tell them they're deluded. I might ask them how they can be sure they hadn't experienced some sort of hallucination but if they conclude they haven't what really can I say? I'm not going to be convinced of the existence of gods based on their experience but I can't fault them if they are. It seems the civil thing to do to grant each other the final say in what we believe based on our own experience.

They are not required to restrict their conclusions to what can be demonstrated objectively, and anyway no one does.

[The Grand Nudger]

Those need'nt be the bar. We're talking about claims to those attributes, aren't we? One doesn't have to find a god with those attributes to justify their inclusion or exclusion in the metrics of how we classify "god" or "gods" or what is or is not a "god". Some gods are not claimed to be omni-anything, for example.

How about a critter that can do a couple things we can't do,

Well, that's problematic from the word go. God's are not commonly "critters" of any kind (though sometimes they are). They are usually entirely different from anything else we would call a creature in many important ways.

lives enough longer than we do to have a significantly different perspective and who knows a hell of a lot by virtue of having lived so long.

Are we talking about a god or an old, wise, creature? As per the above, there can be some differentiating factors. We are old, wise creatures with respect to ants. That doesn't make us gods, does it?

I don't think I want to make Her a mind reader but lets suppose our motives and intent are always perfectly obvious to her because she just reads people so well. While we're at it, lets say She has a Jedi's ability to go unnoticed by anyone she doesn't want to make her self known to. This allows her to go undetected by science since no scientist will perceive the evidence of her that is there unless she permits it. Is that a 'god'?

It's a claim that parrots some god claims in many ways. How did you hear about this god, how do we know it has these attributes (or that these attributes are even possible in theory)? These are the places where claims are really fleshed out and become falsifiable. "I can imagine something" doesn't require any debunking. "What I'm imagining may exist" can always be approached.

It is incredibly difficult to imagine completely detached gods. It's easy to argue for the unknown sure, but calling it god and giving it some attribute (such as creator) isn't arguing for the unknown anymore. We'd be defining it (as a god), and something physically demonstrable that it has done (in the act of creation). That sounds like a whole lot of "known" for the "unknown"...to me.

[Whateverist]

Those need'nt be the bar. We're talking about claims to those attributes, aren't we? One doesn't have to find a god with those attributes to justify their inclusion or exclusion in the metrics of how we classify "god" or "gods" or what is or is not a "god". Some gods are not claimed to be omni-anything, for example.

How about a critter that can do a couple things we can't do,

Well, that's problematic from the word go. God's are not commonly "critters" of any kind (though sometimes they are). They are usually entirely different from anything else we would call a creature in many important ways.

lives enough longer than we do to have a significantly different perspective and who knows a hell of a lot by virtue of having lived so long.

Are we talking about a god or an old, wise, creature? As per the above, there can be some differentiating factors. We are old, wise creatures with respect to ants. That doesn't make us gods, does it?

I don't think I want to make Her a mind reader but lets suppose our motives and intent are always perfectly obvious to her because she just reads people so well. While we're at it, lets say She has a Jedi's ability to go unnoticed by anyone she doesn't want to make her self known to. This allows her to go undetected by science since no scientist will perceive the evidence of her that is there unless she permits it. Is that a 'god'?

It's a claim that parrots some god claims in many ways. How did you hear about this god, how do we know it has these attributes (or that these attributes are even possible in theory)? These are the places where claims are really fleshed out and become falsifiable. "I can imagine something" doesn't require any debunking. "What I'm imagining may exist" can always be approached.

It is incredibly difficult to imagine completely detached gods. It's easy to argue for the unknown sure, but calling it god and giving it some attribute (such as creator) isn't arguing for the unknown anymore. We'd be defining it (as a god), and something physically demonstrable that it has done (in the act of creation). That sounds like a whole lot of "known" for the "unknown"...to me.

I have to think that if anything was discovered that in any way met a minimal description of a god, it would have to be something of the natural world. If god by definition is something other than knowable then of course it can't exist and will never be discoverable. That's why I wonder what would be the minimal skill set required for the title of god.

I don't think that gods have to be creators. The greek and roman gods weren't creators. As for the idea that we're pretty god-like I think that is spot on. After all we're the ones who invented the category. Perhaps it takes one to know one? When I argue against determinism and they suggest that free willers are imagining a little god inside us, I like to say that no we just are our own gods. We may be a kind of god-lite or godlet, but in the arena of sapience we're the best we've found.

[The Grand Nudger]

Still, the distinction between what we mean when we say "god" and what we mean when we say that we are like gods to ants is pretty clear in your mind, yes?

[Whateverist]

Damn, you're right. Just jumped out the window and instead of flying in a godly manner I plummeted like a mere ant god.

[The Grand Nudger]

"And on that day the lord in his great righteousness came down out of the sky in a loud, terrible, and completely intentional fury, crushing those hopeless sinners who had chosen to deny his divinity."-Found in the midden heap of an ant ruin, inscribed on the smooth surfaces of an aluminum soda tab.

[Epimethean]

The Greek gods and their antecedents, the Titans, were creators, simply not world-creators. Many of the Greek myth cycles put the gods and Titans forward as creators of man.