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RE: How Can Christians Still Believe??
March 7, 2012 at 3:59 am
(This post was last modified: March 7, 2012 at 4:04 am by picto90.)
When I was growing up in a Christian family, I was told that questioning God was a sin. That was probably the main reason I didn't seek out any knowledge - past that which is in the bible - until later in life. Christians are pretty against anyone questioning God, but really the bible is all for it.
Malachi 3:10 reads, "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it."
As one example.
Perhaps the only reason that it's recently become so taboo to question religion is because off how falsifiable it is now.
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RE: How Can Christians Still Believe??
March 7, 2012 at 9:57 am
The following is not an attempt to convert or convince anyone, so I’m not going to defend it against attacks. I’m providing an example of a Christian theology that does not depend on literal interpretation of the bible or sacrificial atonement.
When Swedenborg talks about the “Word” it essentially means God’s promise. As in, God gave us his word that he will hold us in good and protect us from falsity. In New Church theology, the stories and narratives of the OT, Gospel accounts and the Apocalypse, symbolically represents God and records his on-going relationship to humanity. In order to convey these spiritual truths the form of the scriptures are were written by men in ways to accommodate man’s natural perspective, but in such a way that each word and phrase retains an inner meaning. Basically, historic narratives were fudged and other parts are pure allegory. Other scriptures and other religions, from Greek Mythology to Buddhist koans, reflect to greater or lesser degree these same spiritual truths. It is just a matter of being receptive to them, even if that means on an unconscious level.
For example, previous prophets prior to Jesus served symbolic representations of the Word. Their actions symbolized the status of God’s covenant with humanity. When God commanded Hosea to marry a prostitute, it served as a metaphor for the way the Israelis whored the Word. God also commanded Ezekiel to eat cow dung, because the Israelis had mixed falsity and evil into the Word. Jeremiah wore a yoke to show how the priests and scribes had burdened the Word with man-made rules and commands. At the time Jesus prayed in Gethsemane he struggled with the call to represent through his own body. By that time the church despised, tortured, and ultimately murdered the spiritual meaning of the Word.
The death and resurrection of Jesus is particularly significant. If the corpse of the Jewish carpenter, Jesus, had remained dead then you would see the Word destroyed for all time. But that is not what the Gospels record. He arose. This symbolizes that the spiritual meaning of the Word cannot be destroyed. In the New Church, there are no scape-goats or escape from the sins of the past, only repentance and a commitment to choosing goodness and truth over evil and falsity.
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RE: How Can Christians Still Believe??
March 7, 2012 at 10:47 am
There isn't a shred of evidence in the New Church either, and any pretty allegory you care to dredge up can be set upon itself by a cruel reversal at any moment. "These are just stories, but god exists". Sure, sure.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Can Christians Still Believe??
March 7, 2012 at 1:54 pm
"...a commitment to choosing goodness and truth over evil and falsity." I think we all want that.
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RE: How Can Christians Still Believe??
March 7, 2012 at 2:06 pm
When Swedenborg talks about the “Word” it essentially means God’s promise.
Sorry - but when YOU can prove a god exists - the PROMISE is nothing more than fairy tales made up by Humans - as all claims of gods have proven to be.
ALL studies have established that prayer has NO effect beyond that of pure chance - and it makes no difference what you pray to.
However I am willing to give YOU another chance
In the recent Tornado activity - a lady managed to save her children while LOSING her legs which had to be amputated. THe bible says
"Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:"
THERE is NO limitation on what - and NO requirements set that need to be met. THERE is no statement that it will be considered - or that it must be the will of god - it says - ask and IT SHALL be given you. No excuses - no coniditions -period.
Pray that her legs are restored to their former human form.
THEN HOLD YOUR BREATH WAITING
IF you are still alive to post the pictures of the miracle - do that to - but I suspect EVEN YOU do not believe it will happen
Otherwise - the "PROMISE" is just nonsense
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RE: How Can Christians Still Believe??
March 7, 2012 at 2:13 pm
Quote:I believe the entire Bible is true,
Which is why I think you are batshit crazy, G-C.
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RE: How Can Christians Still Believe??
March 7, 2012 at 2:20 pm
(March 7, 2012 at 2:06 pm)ThomM Wrote: When Swedenborg talks about the “Word” it essentially means God’s promise.
Sorry - but when YOU can prove a god exists - the PROMISE is nothing more than fairy tales made up by Humans - as all claims of gods have proven to be.
ALL studies have established that prayer has NO effect beyond that of pure chance - and it makes no difference what you pray to.
However I am willing to give YOU another chance
In the recent Tornado activity - a lady managed to save her children while LOSING her legs which had to be amputated. THe bible says
"Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:"
THERE is NO limitation on what - and NO requirements set that need to be met. THERE is no statement that it will be considered - or that it must be the will of god - it says - ask and IT SHALL be given you. No excuses - no coniditions -period.
Pray that her legs are restored to their former human form.
THEN HOLD YOUR BREATH WAITING
IF you are still alive to post the pictures of the miracle - do that to - but I suspect EVEN YOU do not believe it will happen
Otherwise - the "PROMISE" is just nonsense
You really need to come to a better understanding of what scripture says. The verse you gave is about salvation, not about getting worldly desires. I saw the interview and the mother was happy that her children did not lose their lives and if the cost was her legs she was OK with that, this is love that is beyond understanding.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: How Can Christians Still Believe??
March 7, 2012 at 2:50 pm
A mother being willing to sacrifice her legs for her child is not love that goes beyond understanding. It is not uncommon for people to be willing to sacrifice great things for those people that they love. I am not saying she did not sacrifice but it is not so great as to escape understanding. It is also a generally natural instinct, some people don't have it I suppose, to protect ones child even at the cost of your own life. I have not studied Neurobiology enough but I am willing to toss the dice here and say that its been studied out.
- As far as for how Christians can still believe I had an interesting run in with someone who is essentially a Christian Universalist a few weeks back. He said to me that you can't prove that God exists or that scripture is inspired. He went through his own journey with it and in the end came to the conclusion that he was going to toss his lot in with faith. I appreciated his honesty in the matter and he doesn't believe in Hell so he wasn't concerned about me. So there are ways people can maintain their belief simply through deciding to toss their lot in faith.
I don't think that this is the most rational thing to do especially if you don't believe you are going to get the stick for not believing but I guess your mileage will vary. I think people may get to the point of non-belief knowing the same issues we do and just decide that it is far more comfortable to not leave religion behind. Overall, in my perspective, if their beliefs don't harm themselves, others, or scientific progress then it is relatively harmless.
The extremely liberal/universalist mindset may be the natural evolution of Christianity before it really begins dying out. I think the death bells of Christianity have begun to sound. I know that people talk about it gaining grounds in foreign countries but illiterate and controlled or literate and controlled getting convinced of religion doesn't impress me. I doubt it will happen in my life time but I perceive that some day Christianity will takes its place among the myths of Zeus, Thor, etc. I personally welcome the slide into universalism etc because this form of Christianity is non-abrasive and still is interested in making the world a better place.
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RE: How Can Christians Still Believe??
March 7, 2012 at 5:40 pm
Response to Godschild,
Your proof-text, Matthew 7:7, is set between other symbolic verses. For example:
Verse 3-5 - about eyes with specks and logs in them…is about intelligence hindered by small versus large falsities.
Verse 6 - giving holy things to dogs, pearls to swine…means presenting spiritual ideas to those unable to receive it because they love evil.
Verse 9 – fathers giving their sons loaves and not stones…concerns desiring truths that nourish our character versus dry and useless ones.
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RE: How Can Christians Still Believe??
March 7, 2012 at 10:50 pm
(March 7, 2012 at 1:54 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: "...a commitment to choosing goodness and truth over evil and falsity." I think we all want that. Absolutely, ergo antitheism.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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