Sorry for the short reply, I assure you that I've read your post fully, but I'm not sure what it is that you actually want to happen.
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Current time: November 28, 2024, 7:08 pm
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What is good about theism and theists?
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 RE: What is good about theism and theists?
March 9, 2012 at 6:18 pm
(This post was last modified: March 9, 2012 at 6:21 pm by NoMoreFaith.)
(March 9, 2012 at 6:09 pm)Werewolff Wrote: Sorry for the short reply, I assure you that I've read your post fully, but I'm not sure what it is that you actually want to happen. Not a problem. I was waxing poetic anyway. What I want to happen seemed irrelevant to discussing the plus points of theism. I was discussing why I struggle with the concept given the lack of plus points provided to discuss. More to the point, something that may appear to be preferable, i.e. religion, does not make it true, and I believe civilization is coming to a point where it becomes redundant. So what do I want, and when do I want it?  I dream of a world where a chicken does not have to worry about people questioning his motives before crossing the road. I also think atrocity is harder to get away with if you are forced to rationalise your reasoning for committing harm instead of declaring the atrocity valid based upon unsubstantial belief. The biggest difficulty we have in enforcing human rights violations across the globe is where religion claims the high ground. However, my opinion on what I'd like to see achieved still seems irrelevant to the plus points of religion, which is why I left it out. EDIT: I'm not trying to have an argument, just identifying why I cannot come up with plus points for theism.
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside? The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm 
I try to take a prcatical approach. I look around and here's what I see :
A - People who don't believe in god and don't do bad things B - People who believe in god and don't do bad things C - People who don't believe in god and do bad things D - People who believe in god and do bad things Deal with C and D based on what they do, and leave A and B as they are. RE: What is good about theism and theists?
March 9, 2012 at 6:34 pm
(This post was last modified: March 9, 2012 at 6:35 pm by NoMoreFaith.)
(March 9, 2012 at 6:23 pm)Werewolff Wrote: I try to take a prcatical approach. I look around and here's what I see : You're ignoring the nature of doing bad things BECAUSE they believe in God. We can do without it and your practical approach is made more useful by removing the utterly superfluous B & D. I've explained my reasoning why the moderates need to share responsibility of that and I've explained my views that its easier to counteract the "bad things" when they are forced to resort to reason. What I fail to see, is an argument for what IS good about theism and theists as opposed to removing theo from the equation and just deal with people as people, instead of supernatural entities delivering commandments through the medium of dark age prejudice. I don't like doing all the talking, when I'm positive in my slightly drunken state that my position is far from unassailable.
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside? The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm
The reason why I don't think theists who don't do bad things should share the responsibility with those theists who do is quite simply, and I hate to state the obvious, because they don't do bad things. They have something in common with them namely that they share some (not all) beliefs, but that has nothing to do with it.
(March 9, 2012 at 6:39 pm)Werewolff Wrote: They have something in common with them namely that they share some (not all) beliefs, but that has nothing to do with it. It has EVERYTHING to do with it and I went into some poetic detail as to why it is the case. When the catholic church bans condoms and causes untold suffering in africa that outweighs their charity efforts, every catholic shares responsibility for that. When Muslims kill because of perceived insult to their imaginary friend, every muslim shares responsibility for it with their damned silence. When christians cause a gay man to commit suicide because of the guilt and hatred he is exposed to. Every christian shares in that blame. You're talking about bad things that are irrelevant to the religion, and once again, ignore the evils done in the name of religion which shares its responsibility with the moderates who claim to hold the same beliefs (maybe not all). Defend theism and theists from a position that it is in any way necessary and the injustices performed in GODS name has its place in the modern world, and this has potential for an interesting exchange of ideas. I understand that your wife is theist, and your story of meeting her was beautiful, and I'm sure she is wonderful. But I see no evidence of a Theistic plus argued yet, rather unsubstantiated statements that "oh but people do bad things, the reason they do bad things doesn't matter." The truth is, it does. Your reasoning for evil and the passive support of those who claim your religion as the bedrock for it, absolutely does.
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside? The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm
You're stating, in the 3 examples that you give, that all theists share the responsibility when something bad is done. But you're not justifying that statement. The only thing you've mentioned is when theists remain silent. But why focus on silent theists? What about those who are not silent? And what about silent atheists? You're painting too simplistic a picture.
How do you square the idea that all theists share responsibility for bad things being done in the name of the religion with my wife being a good person, or indeed many theists being good people? What exactly do you want my wife, or any theist, to do about bad things being done in order for them to not share responsibility? I'd say there's nothing for them to do. You're making an issue out of something that is not an issue. Do you think I'm not as appalled as anyone else when I hear about someone in a religion doing something stupid in its name? Of course I am. But blaming everyone else in that religion isn't the answer. Imagine if you were in a room amongst some religious people and you were all talking about how so and so did something bad in the name of their religion. You would most likely hear them all condemning it. Would you then turn around and say "Oh, and by the way, it's all partly your fault?"
Yet, after multiple requests, no defense of theism.
I can only refer to the previous posts you claim to read in regards to the responsibilities of the moderates.
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside? The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm
You yourself have said a lot in defense of theists.
(March 9, 2012 at 8:16 pm)Werewolff Wrote: You yourself have said a lot in defense of theists. I certainly have. Due to absence of defence from yourself. Like I mentioned, I'm drunk as fuck right now, so I'm more militant than usual. But the purpose of the thread was to discuss the relative merits of theism, and I see nothing of the sort. I understand concepts regarding the positive aspects of it, and drunkenly responded with my views upon responsibility if you assume a stance defending it. You're such a likeable guy as far as I've seen so there's some guilt in taking an offensive position. I would state that if you wish to discuss the positive aspects of theism and theists, maybe it would be constructive if you offered some of your own.
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside? The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm |
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