The Magic of Atheism?

[Eyem4Christ]

I suppose I should start some kind of thread to see how things will go. Here's something that bothers me.

There is the dimension of space, it’s three dimensional, and then there is the dimension of time. But then there are the forces of nature: gravity, electromagnetism, the weak and strong interaction forces.

There’s only two ways to look at this. One is atheistic and suggests that for no reason at all the entire universe popped into existence out of nothing with these particular properties in place for no reason. The only problem with that is that these four fundamental forces were needed before the universe existed. They were needed for the universe to have ever come into existence to begin with. They had to exist prior to it.

Atheists would have us return to ignorance. They would say that this is simply unknowable, and it’s unknowable because God can’t possibly exist, even though the universe and its fundamental forces are inconceivable apart from an intelligent designer bringing it into existence.

If God is not there, then the universe is magic. It came into existence without the fundamental forces in place, either separately or as a grand unified force. The forces would have had to come after—even though they were needed before. That's magical thinking.

Theists who understand even a little about cosmology are forced to believe in God, because that is the only non-magical explanation. A Divine Designer who existed prior to the universe is simply more plausible than the alternative.

That's my take on things--unless you know a better way.

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Theists who understand even a little about cosmology are forced to believe in God, because that is the only non-magical explanation.

Old bronze age thinking..

If I can't explain something or don't know the answer... Goddidit!!

[Phil]

There is the dimension of space, it’s three dimensional, and then there is the dimension of time.

No, there is no 3d space with a separate dimension of time. There is 4D spacetime. If you think you can use science, a great idea would be to learn some first.

But then there are the forces of nature: gravity, electromagnetism, the weak and strong interaction forces.

There’s only two ways to look at this. One is atheistic and suggests that for no reason at all the entire universe popped into existence out of nothing with these particular properties in place for no reason.

That isn't atheistic and it is where I stopped reading your idiotic tripe. All I will ask is for you to show me the scientific theory that says the universe came from nothing, that is what your bible claims not what science says.

[Cyberman]

God is non-magical now?

[Nine]

There’s only two ways to look at this. One is atheistic and suggests that for no reason at all the entire universe popped into existence out of nothing with these particular properties in place for no reason. The only problem with that is that these four fundamental forces were needed before the universe existed. They were needed for the universe to have ever come into existence to begin with. They had to exist prior to it.

Who said there needs to be a reason?

If those forces were not there we wouldn't be here to have this conversation. So that's irrelevant.

Atheists would have us return to ignorance. They would say that this is simply unknowable, and it’s unknowable because God can’t possibly exist, even though the universe and its fundamental forces are inconceivable apart from an intelligent designer bringing it into existence.

Not unknowable. Not known yet. No they are conceivable without intelligent design we just don't know everything yet. Science is gradual we will get an answer. Even so how is god the answer? I see know reason why you can say that god did it because we don't know the answer yet.

If God is not there, then the universe is magic. It came into existence without the fundamental forces in place, either separately or as a grand unified force. The forces would have had to come after—even though they were needed before. That's magical thinking.

Wait a sec? WTF? No the idea that god did it is called magic. The greatest minds in the world are still pondering what started the universe so how the hell do you know? god did it is not a reasonable response.. just a heads up.

Theists who understand even a little about cosmology are forced to believe in God, because that is the only non-magical explanation. A Divine Designer who existed prior to the universe is simply more plausible than the alternative.

They are already theists they literally take no convincing. Its not a non-magical explanation to say god did it. In fact its entirely magical. Is god Dumbledore? wait no he was nice.. and he was gay.. Must be voldermort.

god is not a plausible idea. how you can say that without feeling embarrassed is beyond me.

That's my take on things--unless you know a better way.

All ears? I doubt that.

[Tobie]

Theists who understand even a little about cosmology are forced to believe in God, because that is the only non-magical explanation. A Divine Designer who existed prior to the universe is simply more plausible than the alternative.

You say theists who understand some cosmology are forced to believe in god - if they are theists, they already believe in god. The cosmology they know so little about isn't what forces them to believe in god, their indoctrinating culture is.


Yet somehow your all-powerful god is not magic? If god created the universe, why are so many things wrong with it?

A created universe is a logical impossibility. If god created the universe, who created god? You say the Big Bang theory is full of shit because science has not yet explained why the universe came into existence, yet you readily accept that some god created it, and this god was always there? Your own argument bites you in the arse.

[Napoléon]

There’s only two ways to look at this.

No actually. There multitudes of ways to look at the universe, but I see where this is heading...

One is atheistic and suggests that for no reason at all

Not necessarily true. But even if it were, the problem with that is?

the entire universe popped into existence out of nothing with these particular properties in place for no reason. The only problem with that is that these four fundamental forces were needed before the universe existed. They were needed for the universe to have ever come into existence to begin with. They had to exist prior to it.

Says who? Are you giving us your expert opinion with a Ph.D. in Physics? I think not.

Atheists would have us return to ignorance.

The only ignorance around here is the shit you keep shovelling around these forums. Oh the irony.

They would say that this is simply unknowable

Dude where the fuck do you get off telling US what WE think/believe? Go fuck yourself.

and it’s unknowable because God can’t possibly exist

Where do you even come up with this stupid fucking logic?

even though the universe and its fundamental forces are inconceivable apart from an intelligent designer bringing it into existence.

Say whaaaaa? I always love that you guys moan and say that 'the universe had to come from somewhere' and that 'something doesn't come from nothing'. THEN WHERE THE FUCK DID YOUR DEITY COME FROM?

If God is not there, then the universe is magic.

Please stop with your use of irony. It's making me cringe.

It came into existence without the fundamental forces in place, either separately or as a grand unified force. The forces would have had to come after—even though they were needed before. That's magical thinking.

You know what's magical thinking? That some sky daddy made the universe with materials and matter that didn't even exist prior. Yeah. Magic.

Theists who understand even a little about cosmology are forced to believe in God, because that is the only non-magical explanation. A Divine Designer who existed prior to the universe is simply more plausible than the alternative.

I think 99% of the scientific community would disagree with you there.

(I said 99 because there's always those few batshit insane fuckers around)

That's my take on things--unless you know a better way.

Yeah. I do know of a better way. It's called SCIENCE. It doesn't pretend to know all the answers, rather it tries as hard as it can to work them out. Your method simply leaves us twiddling our thumbs doing absolutely nothing constructive.

[Darwinian]

Has no-one said it yet then? Ok, here goes..


God of the Gaps


Aaah, feels better now.

[The Grand Nudger]

I suppose I should start some kind of thread to see how things will go. Here's something that bothers me.

There is the dimension of space, it’s three dimensional, and then there is the dimension of time. But then there are the forces of nature: gravity, electromagnetism, the weak and strong interaction forces.

With you so far.

There’s only two ways to look at this.

False dichotomy born of complete ignorance.

One is atheistic and suggests that for no reason at all the entire universe popped into existence out of nothing with these particular properties in place for no reason.

Strawman

The only problem with that is that these four fundamental forces were needed before the universe existed. They were needed for the universe to have ever come into existence to begin with. They had to exist prior to it.

Why you seem to believe this is beyond me, but you clearly believe other equally amusing things. How does any of this follow btw? Pro-tip, it doesn't.

Atheists would have us return to ignorance. They would say that this is simply unknowable, and it’s unknowable because God can’t possibly exist, even though the universe and its fundamental forces are inconceivable apart from an intelligent designer bringing it into existence.

Is it October already? Inconceivable to you, perhaps, argument from personal incredulity.

If God is not there, then the universe is magic. It came into existence without the fundamental forces in place, either separately or as a grand unified force. The forces would have had to come after—even though they were needed before. That's magical thinking.

I think you need to educate yourself more than just a little bit about both god and magic.

Theists who understand even a little about cosmology are forced to believe in God, because that is the only non-magical explanation. A Divine Designer who existed prior to the universe is simply more plausible than the alternative.

Perhaps you could elaborate on how little you understand about cosmology? Plausible than what alternative? It's more plausible that a roast beef sandwich "created and designed" the cosmos..the roast beef sandwich exists.

That's my take on things--unless you know a better way.

I think a great many people know better, but "a better way"? Sorry, you're on your own (and I mean this in the most comprehensive way you that cannot imagine).

[mediamogul]

In terms of the philosophy behind these arguments they are basically the First Cause argument and the teleological argument or argument from design.

Simple logic disproves the first one. You state the universe must have a cause because it cannot come from nothing (which is not what modern physics neccessarily states but I'll play along) and therefore there must exist an uncaused cause which created the universe. You then call this thing that caused the universe "god". Surely God would be more complex than the universe and demands a cause himself. What caused god to come into existence? Then what caused god's cause? So on and so forth. We end up with an infinite regress.

The "laws" of physics are more just descriptions of the way that matter behaves. Quantum physics demonstrates how those once deemed immutable laws don't apply on a sub-atomic level. We simply refer to them as "laws" because it makes more sense to our human brains. The "laws" of physics most likely came into existence with the universe and there could foreseeably exist other universes in which the "laws" of physics do not behave in the way that we understand them to. None of it implies intelligence.