Freewill

[KichigaiNeko]

Yet the life, death and resurrection of Jesus spread and created multitudes of converts within five years of his time on earth. Were they all so easily fooled?

It's not that they were fooled. They were already familiar with the idea of a god sending down himself to Earth e.g. Zeus and Heracles. The themes found in the NT already existed for around a thousand years before Jesus was even thought of.

I think the anonymous authors of the Gospels deserve a pat on the back for a successful marketing strategy. Although I'd only give them 2/10 for originality and 0/10 for proof reading. If they're going to copy each other's hearsay accounts at least make them sound remotely similar. Regardless, they knew what their target audience wanted to hear.

Makes much more sense than ...goddidit.

[Ace Otana]

But that is not what the Gospels record. He arose.

what is it that they record again, I always forget. Was there 1 man, 2 men, 1 angel or 2 angels waiting for Mary at the tomb? Keep in mind the earliest manuscripts of Mark don't have the verses of people witnessing a resurrected Jesus.

Last time I checked the answer was all 4. Chinese whispers?

Also, can anyone name the witnesses?

Did you know there was a pink rabbit that grew wings and flew up into the sky? Just ask the four witnesses.

[KichigaiNeko]

And NEVER forget the Invisible PINK Unicorn!!

lol

[genkaus]

Every time this dick shows up, I feel physically sick at the thought that I share the same species with him.

It's not the injustice the Romans gave that saves us, it's Jesus' love poured out on the cross. The point is that Jesus died when he did not deserve death--he never sinned, and he faces the penalty anyway. Being God, he was also able to take all our sins on himself. Jesus asked the Father, "Why have you forsaken me?" implying that even God the Father could not look upon his Son as he bore the sins of the world. Today, sinners do need to repent in order to receive the sacrifice Jesus already gave. The Bible is one great love story. If God just gave us salvation without our asking what would either get out of the situation? A father is not going to let his daughter eat her dinner until she at least promises to try not to stab her brother with the fork again. That's the first part of repentance--abiding by the law. The second is love. Which is better--to do the right thing out of fear of punishment or out of love for whom you're doing it? A parent would know the answer to this also. So these two are all Jesus wants in return for a salvation we ourselves could never earn. But Christianity isn't incentive-oriented. It's love-oriented, meaning all my attempts to convince you to repent for eternal life will go nowhere--because, ultimately, you must love Jesus first. Christianity is not about what you get, it's a state of mind. You don't find Jesus, he finds you.

He does not even see how disgusting this paragraph makes his god out to be. He can't even keep his story straight - he he says that both law and love are used - but its not incentive related. And love Jesus or go to hell? What kind of narcissistic, egomaniacal, self-obsessed, insecure and tyrannical being is this?

[KichigaiNeko]

One who sees themselves as vulnerable, disenfranchised and is not educated enough to make their way in the world... All statements to the fact that THIS is a person who is totally paranoid of the "Big DADDY in the sky"

Rather sad really...

[The Grand Nudger]

I'm fairly certain that what "poured out" in your snuff scene wasn't love, but blood. Whatever floats your boat UD.

[Neo-Scholastic]

It's not the injustice the Romans gave that saves us, it's Jesus' love poured out on the cross.

One interpretation. The other is that he did so only out of obedience, i.e. his love of God not of man.

The point is that Jesus died when he did not deserve death--he never sinned, and he faces the penalty anyway. Being God, he was also able to take all our sins on himself. Jesus asked the Father, "Why have you forsaken me?" implying that even God the Father could not look upon his Son as he bore the sins of the world.

How can anyone reading this not conclude that you are talking about two distinct entities, i.e. two gods. Read that back to yourself and be honest. Do you imagine two beings or only one? BTW "Why hast thou forsaken me" was just reference to Psalm 22 so as to confirm to observers his role as the Messiah.

Today, sinners do need to repent in order to receive the sacrifice Jesus already gave.

You cannot 'recieve' a sacrifice. You can only be one or watch it happen. The disciples watched it happen and took leassons from it. We read about it and are instructed. Nothing more.

Then why does he claim to be God at least 40 times in the Gospels?

John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but the One and Only who is at the Father's side, has made him known." Presumably the disciples could see Jesus.
Exodus 33:20 "'But,' He said,'you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." Surely people saw JC's face without dropping dead.

Why would writers make up prophets to symbolize the Word not dying when they (the prophets) themselves make up most of the Word?

Because the word is not ink on paper assembled by a council into 66 books. The Word was manifest as a historical processthrough the lives of the Patriarchs and the Prophets. It is written in your heart.

What is the point beyond the ten commandments?

To do exactly what they are meant to do. Serve as a guide for right behavior. To 'keep' the commandments means to hold them in your heart and mind to guide you. You keep them before you to guide you. They are not some kind of test filled with trick questions.

Why impose poetic stories on people with the appearance of truth when there is no ultimate purpose behind them? The prophets predicted a Messiah--one greater than they--and he came. He didn't claim to be a prophet like they did.

Dueteronomy 18:18 "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account"
Mathew 13:57 "But Jesus said to them 'A prophet is not without honor except in his home town and in his own household."

Men like Jesus had come along hundreds of times claiming to be messiahs--they all died horrible, unglorified deaths.[/quote]Because their deaths were not preceeded by words and deeds comparable to those of Christ.

Here comes the proof-texting to defend the magic 'Faith Alone' incantation...

Romans 10:9 "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

James 2:17 "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." How can a dead faith save.
1 John 5 "but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has been truly perfected by this we know that we are in Him
Revelations 2:11 "...He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." The second death is damnation, therefore to avoid it you must overcome. A profession of faith only proceeds overcoming. It is not in itself overcoming.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Does gave also mean 'sacrifice' or does it mean that he provides us an image by which we can be saved..something to guide us in our regeneration.?

[Godscreated]

GodsChild, your sorietology is all wrong. Sacrificial atonement makes two wrongs a right. The so-called sin of Adam corrected by the brutal injustice of the Passion now absolves the guilty of their crimes? It disregards the need for sinners to repent and take actions leading to their regeneration. Christ saves us by the example of His life, not through the manner of his death.

All the prophets served as examples and representatives of the Word. When our Lord commanded Hosea to marry a prostitute, it served as a metaphor for the way the Israelis whored the Word. God also commanded Ezekiel to eat cow dung. In this way, the Lord revealed that the Israelis had mixed falsity and evil into the Word. Isaiah was told to spend three years naked and barefoot. Jeremiah wore a yoke to show how the priests and scribes had burdened the Word with man-made rules and commands. Jesus in His humanity struggled with the call to represent the state of the God’s covenant in his role as the greatest prophet. At the time our Lord prayed in Gethsemane, the church despised, tortured, and ultimately murdered the spiritual meaning of the Word.

Our Lord’s death and resurrection is only important because if the corpse of the Jewish carpenter, Jesus, had remained dead then you would see the Word symbolically destroyed for all time. But that is not what the Gospels record. He arose. You cannot escape the clear symbolism; the spiritual meaning of the Word cannot be destroyed.

Jesus was not, as you believe, a God/Man from birth, but someone who through the course of his life fully identified with and responded to the purpose of the God consciousness within himself. In so doing he shed the natural human nature that is prone to temptation and suffering. Through glorification he became the Divine Human which guides us by example in our regeneration.

In his glorified state our Lord Jesus Christ provides us with an image of the Ideal Form, the Divine Human to which all other humans aspire but can only partially manifest. God is incarnate in the lives of all humans when they act according to the call from God. This is what it means to be "saved".

Sorry buddy I believe in grace, enough said me thinks.

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But that is not what the Gospels record. He arose.

what is it that they record again, I always forget. Was there 1 man, 2 men, 1 angel or 2 angels waiting for Mary at the tomb? Keep in mind the earliest manuscripts of Mark don't have the verses of people witnessing a resurrected Jesus.

Last time I checked the answer was all 4. Chinese whispers?

Yeah, yeah...heard all about the apparent contradictions, really don't want to debate that right now. I just wanted to make my Christian brother aware that sacrificial atonement is only one of many ways of interpreting "salvation".

Not according to God, you need to study scriptures my friend.

[Minimalist]

I want to see you pull of the second part. RAISE FROM THE DEAD.

It takes a genuine idiot to believe such abject nonsense, G-C. Luckily for you, you fit the bill.

[Godscreated]

You need to stop your circular reasoning, please move in a straight line, your understanding of God is a fail. You want God to give up something, then turn around and say He is not omnipotent if He does not recover what He lost (circular), stop it. For God to give up something He did not have to says a lot for His omnipotence. The power to give it (purity) up and yet retain His integrity now that's power.

Circular reasoning? Where? I've stated that a being that is all powerful (can do anything) can't really lose anything, since he can get it back. If he loses something and cannot regain it, then he is not all powerful. It's very simple. How is it circular?
Also how can I 'want' god to do anything if I don't believe it even exists?
An all powerful god that does not have all power is a contradiction.
God is all powerful (can do anything)
God cannot regain 'purity' (lacks the power)
It's like saying - Santa's slay can go anywhere.
- Santa's slay can't go to the south pole.
It's a contradiction. Either it can go anywhere or it can't.

It's not circular. If god can lose and not regain something, then he is not all powerful. Simple. He has limits.

Of course I'm going to fail to live up to your expectations of understanding 'your' god. It's your imaginary friend, you made him up, you'd know him better than anyone. And you know what? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

If you do not see circular reasoning in your argument then do not use circular reasoning against christian, because you do not know what it is.

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Christ had to die, blood is the atonement for sin, why, life is in the blood.

Life is also in semen. Why couldn't Jesus just donate that instead?

Wrong, it takes an egg too, then life with it's own blood separate from the mothers.