Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 29, 2024, 5:56 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Nationalism and secularism
#11
RE: Nationalism and secularism
(April 16, 2012 at 6:50 am)frankiej Wrote: Meh, I don't see land as something that someone can really own...

I think that you still don't understand the concept. If nationalism was something based on "land", I could lay claim on each and every territory on which we have owned once upon a time... It's a concept based on the notion, as it's name implies, of the nation. The nation, unless it specifically implies on a specific relationship between the land and people(like the British, a name derived from the island, not the case in which the people have given the name to the island.), is something that goes beyond present boundaries.

Quote:The Kurds, and their ancestors, have been in the middle east longer than the Turks. The Kurds have been there since at least the 9th Century C.E, in places like Al-Mawsil, whereas Turks didn't come to the area till the early 11th Century C.E.
Oh? And how does it come that they never had a political entity that went beyond the simple tribal chiefdom throughout their so-long period in the middle east?
Besides, I didn't say that they didn't have a longer presence in the middle east, I just said that they lacked the presence in present day Turkey.
The average armenian or greek can lay more historical claim than the kurd on that accord, as there was an Armenian kingdom in present day *Kurdistan* and Alexander's empire stretched as wide as Central Asia, and his successor states, the Seleukids, than, the Romans and etc.

There also was an Achmeanid and Sassanid presence there, however the kurds seem to think that they are a different entity from the Persians(which they most certainly are, judging by the huge cultural gap between the two people, the kurds are barely qualified to lay claim on anything at all), so I will assume that their claims to the Medes and *other mesopotamian peoples* are false, and the Kurds are nothing more than what they appear to be today, as they did, the first moment we came across them. A gypsy form of armenoid persian.

Quote:The Turks originate from central Asia, or Turan as you call it, and the Kurds have a range of ancestors including Medes and various Mesopotamian peoples. They have as much of a right to this land as you do.
Their rights and claims are null and void.
Quote:There's a surprising amount of Turks living in Germany. Are you going claim that as part of Turan aswell?
Do we present an overwhelming majority there? No. Is Germany a place we historically have called "our home"?
No. So why should we? But Anatolia is indeed a part of Turan. It was our primary base of operations from which we have launched invasions towards Europe, Africa and the Middle-East, for a millenia.
It is rightfully, and legitimately ours. Both in spirit, and on paper.

Besides, I have already stated that the homelands of the Kurds are not in Anatolia, but further in the east. What good does their historical claims, which are false, do for them? What good did it do for the Greeks?
It cost them their presence in Anatolia since Antiquity, I mind you, Antiquity. The same Greeks who have built the magnificent Temple of Artemis and the Mausoleum at Halicarnassus, are no more. There are none to be found, at all.
Who are the Kurds, who are not able to erect a building larger than the simplest of houses?
[Image: trkdevletbayraklar.jpg]
Üze Tengri basmasar, asra Yir telinmeser, Türük bodun ilingin törüngin kim artatı udaçı erti?
Reply
#12
RE: Nationalism and secularism
Mehmet Wrote:Besides, I didn't say that they didn't have a longer presence in the middle east, I just said that they lacked the presence in present day Turkey.
The average armenian or greek can lay more historical claim than the kurd on that accord, as there was an Armenian kingdom in present day *Kurdistan* and Alexander's empire stretched as wide as Central Asia, and his successor states, the Seleukids, than, the Romans and etc.

The Roman, Seleukid and Macedonian Empires were political entities. Most people in these empires were not Roman, Greek or Macedonian, there was a variety of "races" comprising them.

Kurdistan may have areas in Turkey, but the Kurds are the majority. Why is it ridiculous to let them have their own country where they live,instead of being ruled by, what are essentially, foreigners?

Armenia is it's own country, yet it has far fewer Armenians than Kurdistan has Kurds.
Reply
#13
RE: Nationalism and secularism
(April 17, 2012 at 12:00 pm)tobie Wrote:
Mehmet Wrote:Besides, I didn't say that they didn't have a longer presence in the middle east, I just said that they lacked the presence in present day Turkey.
The average armenian or greek can lay more historical claim than the kurd on that accord, as there was an Armenian kingdom in present day *Kurdistan* and Alexander's empire stretched as wide as Central Asia, and his successor states, the Seleukids, than, the Romans and etc.

The Roman, Seleukid and Macedonian Empires were political entities. Most people in these empires were not Roman, Greek or Macedonian, there was a variety of "races" comprising them.

Kurdistan may have areas in Turkey, but the Kurds are the majority. Why is it ridiculous to let them have their own country where they live,instead of being ruled by, what are essentially, foreigners?

Armenia is it's own country, yet it has far fewer Armenians than Kurdistan has Kurds.
It is not ridiculous for them to desire their own country. It is ridiculous for them to ask us to build them a country, by giving them land, money and essentially everything that they need to do so.
They would need to send the ten plagues of moses upon us to force us to comply with their ourageous demands. Besides, they ask for more land than the regions in which they have no majority in.
If they will not be loyal to this country, they can very much go and live in another. This is a take it or leave it country.
Besides, the reason they are able to voice out such treasonous requests is because they have not been punished by the people for their misdeeds.
They can freely roam Turkey, get an education in a public, state funded university, receive free healthcare, eat our food, and then go to the mountains and shoot at our soldiers while screaming for independence?
No way. Such individuals should be hanged in public, as a reminder for others. Look how Iran is dangling those assholes in the skies. This is the appropriate punishment of terrorism and terrorist propaganda.

[Image: trkdevletbayraklar.jpg]
Üze Tengri basmasar, asra Yir telinmeser, Türük bodun ilingin törüngin kim artatı udaçı erti?
Reply
#14
RE: Nationalism and secularism
(April 17, 2012 at 12:54 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:
(April 17, 2012 at 12:00 pm)tobie Wrote:
Mehmet Wrote:Besides, I didn't say that they didn't have a longer presence in the middle east, I just said that they lacked the presence in present day Turkey.
The average armenian or greek can lay more historical claim than the kurd on that accord, as there was an Armenian kingdom in present day *Kurdistan* and Alexander's empire stretched as wide as Central Asia, and his successor states, the Seleukids, than, the Romans and etc.

The Roman, Seleukid and Macedonian Empires were political entities. Most people in these empires were not Roman, Greek or Macedonian, there was a variety of "races" comprising them.

Kurdistan may have areas in Turkey, but the Kurds are the majority. Why is it ridiculous to let them have their own country where they live,instead of being ruled by, what are essentially, foreigners?

Armenia is it's own country, yet it has far fewer Armenians than Kurdistan has Kurds.
It is not ridiculous for them to desire their own country. It is ridiculous for them to ask us to build them a country, by giving them land, money and essentially everything that they need to do so.
They would need to send the ten plagues of moses upon us to force us to comply with their ourageous demands. Besides, they ask for more land than the regions in which they have no majority in.
If they will not be loyal to this country, they can very much go and live in another. This is a take it or leave it country.
Besides, the reason they are able to voice out such treasonous requests is because they have not been punished by the people for their misdeeds.
They can freely roam Turkey, get an education in a public, state funded university, receive free healthcare, eat our food, and then go to the mountains and shoot at our soldiers while screaming for independence?
No way. Such individuals should be hanged in public, as a reminder for others. Look how Iran is dangling those assholes in the skies. This is the appropriate punishment of terrorism and terrorist propaganda.

I agree that them claiming land where they do not have a majority is wrong, but you could allow them to have the places where they do have a majority.

So you're now saying all kurds are terrorists? Whilst there are some, this is as flawed as saying all muslims are terrorists, and I'm fairly certain you don't believe that.

Also, resorting to taking a leaf from Iran's book is not the way to go.

Reply
#15
RE: Nationalism and secularism
Quote:I agree that them claiming land where they do not have a majority is wrong, but you could allow them to have the places where they do have a majority.
I sometimes think that you post thinks merely for the sake of posting them, without making any sense at all. How is this going to work, friend? Now, if all the kurds in Istanbul would move to a certain place in Istanbul, and ask for independence, would we Turks grant it to them? No. Kurds are a minority within our country. They have to respect our national goals in return for the security and privilages given to them by the state.

It's easy for you to say this, of course.

Quote:So you're now saying all kurds are terrorists? Whilst there are some, this is as flawed as saying all muslims are terrorists, and I'm fairly certain you don't believe that.

Also, resorting to taking a leaf from Iran's book is not the way to go.
They don't have to take up an AK-47 to be a threat. I know a lot of kurds. I know the very, very communist, anarchist ones, and I know the extremely islamist ones. I also know those who have integrated into the system, and are now getting rich from it.

I can tell you this. All kurds are sympathisants. They are. For us Turks, the kurds who shoot at our soldiers and bomb our buildings and streets are terrorists. For kurds, these men are freedom fighters.

This is an ethnic conflict we have here. If we had a religiously motivated conflict, which we did have in the past(Ottoman-Safavid wars), I would have said the same if I too, were religiously motivated.

Besides, I'm not taking a leaf from Iran's book. I'm just stating that we must deal with people as they deserve to be dealt with.
There is no moral upper high ground here. We must strike our enemies as ruthless as they strike us. To show mercy is to show weakness. The only moral standpoint is the law, and order.
Those amongst the kurds who respect the law and order of this country, and agree to be loyal to the country of the Turk, can easily benefit of all privilages that we have access to: there is no second class citizen in my book for that equals a fault of the law. Those who do not wish to do these may leave in peace, but if they choose to take up arms, or try to weaken us by means of politics, or dealing with our enemies should face the consequences of taking that risk.
[Image: trkdevletbayraklar.jpg]
Üze Tengri basmasar, asra Yir telinmeser, Türük bodun ilingin törüngin kim artatı udaçı erti?
Reply
#16
RE: Nationalism and secularism
Agreeing to give the Kurds some land would be a lot simpler and less costly ( in human terms ) than the current situation. The terrorists will subside when they have achieved their goals ( mostly, the extreme ones will go elsewhere, but they'd be terrorists no matter what) and you won't have to waste money on military to fight your countrymen with.

Reply
#17
RE: Nationalism and secularism
(April 17, 2012 at 5:06 pm)tobie Wrote: Agreeing to give the Kurds some land would be a lot simpler and less costly ( in human terms ) than the current situation. The terrorists will subside when they have achieved their goals ( mostly, the extreme ones will go elsewhere, but they'd be terrorists no matter what) and you won't have to waste money on military to fight your countrymen with.
And I'm sure they will be content with receiving the most useless lands in all Turkey on which they are sitting on...If not for the rivers, their lands would be useless, really, their contribution to the overall agricultural output, at least the part that matters, is rather wanting. Besides, they have no natural resources at all, although some have said that there is oil to be found there, where the hell is it? Really, I believe that there is nothing of value in that god forsaken land. But it still is OUR land. Brave Turks have fought and died for every piece of it, while the kurds were busy staging rebellions, before and after our war for independence.

Agreeing to give them what they want will simply result in them wanting more.
Besides, they might be "my countrymen", but they are not of my kind. I do not view them as amongst my own nation, as they don't view me amongst their own. Our feelings for eachother are mutual. So why is it we that should give up and throw the towel?
But as I said, it's all to easy for you to speak, friend.
Speak. Words are meaningless. While the bones of our dead cry for vengeance, we should give them lands, money and infastructure, leave our ancestral monuments there, and let ourselves be treated like the egyptians were when Moses and the Israelites have looted Egypt before
starting their exodus?
No, the word is the word of the sword. Besides, you do not wage war against such rebellious people by the means of the army alone. The word of the sword is literal. You destroy their morale, you cut off their funding, you assasinate their leaders. After the kurds realize that this battle is a battle they cannot win, they will be sweeped down from their strongholds in Iraq by relentless bombings, and a large scale military operation by infantry and tanks. These were long stated by our military strategists, yet the governments except for some were unwilling to follow these policies, but who knows why(poltical corruption)..
[Image: trkdevletbayraklar.jpg]
Üze Tengri basmasar, asra Yir telinmeser, Türük bodun ilingin törüngin kim artatı udaçı erti?
Reply
#18
RE: Nationalism and secularism
My family's blood (and my own, and, amusingly, everyone else's) is soaking the ground all over the world, somehow I manage to avoid making bullshit claims to wherever it has been spilt.....

If the land has no resources, they want it, they have a majority in it, and they've been there for long enough, it's no skin off the Turks back correct? Just give them their little piece of barren wasteland and be rid of the problem forever yes? Seems like such a sweetheart deal, almost like there would have to be some other thing holding the whole process up.....

(what exodus? ......seriously? who the fuck are you appealing to with this one......)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#19
RE: Nationalism and secularism
Quote:If the land has no resources, they want it, they have a majority in it, and they've been there for long enough, it's no skin off the Turks back correct? Just give them their little piece of barren wasteland and be rid of the problem forever yes? Seems like such a sweetheart deal, almost like there would have to be some other thing holding the whole process up.....
Oh sure, friend. Once they think they got you by the balls, that you're ready to give into their demands, who can say what they will demand of you? You think it's solved that easily. You think that the kurds are okay with having their piece of barren landscape while we have the best lands, access to ports and places with coal mines, minerals and etc.?
I have heard this from many other kurds, that they want it all. They want it all. This is what they want from us. Not that barren piece of land, they want us to feed them while they make their demands of us. And for that, we are supposed to pay them homage by granting them land within our own country?
In a country whose name means the land of the Turks? No way, friend. Besides, who needs another satelite state of the US right beneath our doorstep?
A second Israel? No way. We fight them to the end if necessary. They are a minority and will eventually lose, if not for their supporters abroad. For their own folk cannot support them for long. In the case it can't, they take by force: loot villages, rob banks and lastly resort to living off the land by hunting wild boar.

I've said about everything I have to say on this issue. I won't answer any more posts about kurdish independence, so do not ask me again. If you want to reply to my original post, feel free to do so.
[Image: trkdevletbayraklar.jpg]
Üze Tengri basmasar, asra Yir telinmeser, Türük bodun ilingin törüngin kim artatı udaçı erti?
Reply
#20
RE: Nationalism and secularism
You sure seem to know alot about how these people think. You wouldn't happen to be Kurd would you? Maybe a little Kurdish mingling in the ole bloodline? I live in America, strangely it isn't lorded over by the Vespucci family....so I'm not sure why you seem to think that the word "Turkey" would afford you (and your joke of a master-race) any rights of ownership.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Agree/Disagree: is nationalism bad NuclearEnergy 10 2197 December 26, 2016 at 10:29 pm
Last Post: Thumpalumpacus
  Secularism.. lifesagift 12 2259 January 18, 2015 at 6:33 pm
Last Post: lifesagift
  On the logic of nationalism kılıç_mehmet 49 6965 January 29, 2014 at 5:53 pm
Last Post: kılıç_mehmet
  Battle around secularism in the Arab world? Something completely different 13 4015 August 19, 2013 at 2:07 am
Last Post: Minimalist
  China's nationalism mutating into aggression Creed of Heresy 23 8263 July 5, 2013 at 7:51 pm
Last Post: Creed of Heresy
  What is secularism for you? Something completely different 4 1382 January 18, 2013 at 8:58 pm
Last Post: jonb
  What really really constitutes secularism. kılıç_mehmet 11 5322 May 19, 2012 at 10:53 pm
Last Post: Anomalocaris
  Secularism petition (for UK members) groovydude89 7 2636 September 19, 2011 at 8:33 pm
Last Post: Cinjin
  Secularity and Secularism explained. Paul the Human 3 1629 April 21, 2010 at 5:16 am
Last Post: fr0d0



Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)