Nationalism and secularism

[kılıç_mehmet]

You sure seem to know alot about how these people think. You wouldn't happen to be Kurd would you? Maybe a little Kurdish mingling in the ole bloodline?

A very weak attempt at trolling, Rhythm, I thought you to be more capable.

I like to get to know my enemies.
I read their publications, and I even sometimes attend their lectures organised by socialist thought fraternities(therein lies our superiority. I can very well go and sit for three hours listening to their crap, while they can't be bothered with reading even a single paragraph of the people who define Turkish nationalism. Their very communism-supplemented ideology is built on ignorance and blind following).

so I'm not sure why you seem to think that the word "Turkey" would afford you (and your joke of a master-race) any rights of ownership.

Well, it is not just the word, friend. It is long list of collective deeds we have done for these lands to deserve this word. "The land of the Turks..." It isn't a name for a single piece of land. Not far away, just beyond the Caspian Sea, the Lands until you reach China proper, are known as "Turkistan", the land of the Turks.

This is not a name that we have given to these lands, the name was given by our enemies, as even they have acknowledged our strong, unbreakable presence in these lands.
Besides, we also have legitimate, political claims and borders.
However, you being the American that you are, take your name from the piece of land you live on. We on the other hand, live on the piece of land we have given our names to.
Therein lies our superiority.

[The Grand Nudger]

Your superiority looks to be basking in handouts from our inferiority, atm. I don't have to troll you, you handle that all by your onesies. "Your enemies" seem to have been mercilessly defeating you for a few hundred years. Ah well, happens to "the best" of us. It doesn't strike you as sad that you are so starved for pride in your "ethnic identity" and notions of ethnic superiority that you are forced to rely on the actions of those who have been dead for centuries (and even then, in nothing more than bloodshed)? Howsabout you get something done in the here and now? Maybe something that doesn't involve offing people you don't like, stealing lands from the inhabitants or oppressing minorities? Shameful, really.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Your superiority looks to be basking in handouts from our inferiority, atm. I don't have to troll you, you handle that all by your onesies.

The more and more I read your posts, I begin to notice similarities with your *kin* in my own country. And more and more, I know that my views are true.

"Your enemies" seem to have been mercilessly defeating you for a few hundred years. Ah well.

Oh really. They obviously were unsuccessful in defeating us, as we are still free. We die one, we come back a thousand. It takes the combined efforts of Europe, Russia and Persia to bring a single Turkish empire who stood for 600 years to it's knees, and we still have a country on the same spot that the great Sultan Alp Arslan Khan first set foot on a thousand years ago.
Where were you, the great white race of the west to support your brothers in their times of need? Organized a crusade, you did. Still did not help. Then another thousand years later, you sent your dogs upon us, and your president Woodrow Wilson sought to divide these lands, but still you failed somehow. As it's written on the Orkhun inscriptions:"Oh Turk, as long as the sky above does not fall, and the earth beneath does not crumble, who can break thy country and law?"

Ah well, happens to "the best" of us. It doesn't strike you as sad that you are so starved for pride in your "ethnic identity" and notions of ethnic superiority that you are forced to rely on the actions of those who have been dead for centuries (and even then, in nothing more than bloodshed)?

And you seem to think that I have no right to be proud of the archivements of the old? This really brings us to a dead spot. If I had really thought that I had no such right, I surely wouldn't bother with creating something that the future generations could look upon, and be proud, that they try to surpass me as the generations after them could look back in pride, and strive to match our greatness.
The lack of pride, and consciousness is what brings nations down on their knees. We have no lack of pride, nor do we feed or feast upon the archivements of other peoples.

Howsabout you get something done in the here and now? Maybe something that doesn't involve offing people you don't like, stealing lands from the inhabitants or oppressing minorities? Shameful, really.

Here, by here, where? Our mission is to bring about Turan. What greater concept and goal can I set before me? Whatever I do, I do for the advancement of this concept. Besides, we did not steal *any* lands from anyone. It is you, who have brought about a country via the repeated method of stealing lands, by driving out the inhabitants constantly to more barren places, and now, they live in reserves, I don't know the exact conditions they live in, so I won't make a comment on that one.

We on the other hand, have taken what is rightfully ours.
The treaty of Lausanne also recognizes our claims, our borders are crystal clear.
Oppressing minorities. Yeah, as though as minorities were ever barred from our universities, or forced face the discrimination that the blacks had to endure in the days of the apartheid.
You are woefully ignorant, friend. But it's not you who should be blamed for it.

These are my last words on the subject. If you have any other question, I'll be happy to answer.

[The Grand Nudger]

600 years, a thousand years? What kind of garbage is that. Talk to the Chinese, they are clearly the master-race by this metric. You think that I'm part of a "great white race" that organized a crusade...lol, hardly. You're talking to a mutt amigo. Also known as "American". My ancestors have never been in a position to organize anything, we've simply been exploited as the "hounds of war". Same as your own, in all likelihood. I think the Wilson administration did just fine, otherwise there might be an entire ethnicity that had been exterminated. I'm part of that culture that has been nearly exterminated and forced onto reserves, mutt, remember? I know, I know, this is all lost on you, because you seem to be in the habit of determining ethnicity, superiority, and rights to self governance by someones skin-tone (chiefly by how removed it is from your own).

You speak your "last words" on any given subject a hell of alot btw.

[kılıç_mehmet]

600 years, a thousand years? What kind of garbage is that. Talk to the Chinese, they are clearly the master-race by this metric. You think that I'm part of a "great white race" that organized a crusade...lol, hardly. You're talking to a mutt amigo. Also known as "American". My ancestors have never been in a position to organize anything, we've simply been exploited as the "hounds of war". Same as your own, in all likelihood. I think the Wilson administration did just fine, otherwise there might be an entire ethnicity that had been exterminated. I'm part of that culture that has been nearly exterminated and forced onto reserves, mutt, remember? I know, I know, this is all lost on you, because you seem to be in the habit of determining ethnicity, superiority, and rights to self governance by someones skin-tone (chiefly by how removed it is from your own).

You're basically bringing forward the same things you said in previous posts, and I keep giving you the same answers, yet you do not try to understand, really. But maybe these concepts are too foreign to your mind for you to fully understand them. Or maybe you just don't want to, accepting the facts is sometimes too harsh for some to bear.

[The Grand Nudger]

Mostly because you're still expressing the same ethnocentrism and bigotry as you have been since joining the forum. Why would my response to these things change? You think that I don't "understand" ethnocentrism and bigotry? I'm a human being too, remember (rhetorical, you do seem to forget this since I'm not a "Turk", even though I probably am..lol)? These things aren't exactly "foreign" to me, the difference between you and I in this regard seems to be that I am not so much a slave to these disgusting quirks of human nature. It really does help to be able to tell when we are full of shit, no matter how strongly we may believe or wish for something to be true. Que "ethnic superiority", "ethnocentric nationalism/Turan", etc.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Mostly because you're still expressing the same ethnocentrism and bigotry as you have been since joining the forum. Why would my response to these things change? You think that I don't "understand" ethnocentrism and bigotry? I'm a human being too, remember?

Well, what you don't understand is why I actually support ethnocentrism.
You simply say you oppose ethnocentrism, but you obviously don't know why. Either you have too much love or trust in other ethnicities besides your own(although you're probably beyond this, as the notion of ethnicity is lost in your mixed blood), or you simply can't be bothered with in, living in a country that features people of such variaty that live so far away from their original homelands, that they have assimilated into a new cultural identity, and lost the sense of ethnic loyalty, and generally talk in terms of superficial "skin tone" topics.

It simply goes down to what Gökbilge Atsız said about America.
The more and more I learn about the way your kind views the world around themselves, the more I see that the comments that were made years ago still hold a large amount of truth within them.

Therefore, your answers are too, very superficial, and generally unobservant of why I present these ideas before you. These ideas are the result of a process. A long, millenia long process of evolving into *the nation*, the pinnacle of human social evolution.

[The Grand Nudger]

Actually I do know why, because the criteria we choose to decide inclusion or exclusion on the basis of ethnicity is illusory, and built atop a massive pile of bullshit. This is why it doesn't matter to me why you support ethnocentrism. Pick whatever bullshit you like, it will still be bullshit. The notion of ethnicity isn't lost in my "mixed blood" (and this statement is hilarity in and of itself, your blood is as "mixed" as my own, which is to say, not at all, we're both equally human) I am both proud and ashamed of the actions of all of my various "ethnicities". Nobody gets a pass. No specific one of my ancestors deserves any respect on the basis of their ethnicity, and no rights are conferred by any given ethnicity to which I am a party.

Your views and my own are irreconcilable here, and I honestly couldn't care less how dark your heart might be in this regard, as long as you don't bring that bullshit out into the world (as would be the case with your notions of "Turan"). At that point, it's pass the ammunition and eliminate the tyranny that exists within the desires of men that the ignorant seem incapable of containing within themselves.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Actually I do know why, because the criteria we choose to decide inclusion or exclusion on the basis of ethnicity is illusory, and built atop a massive pile of bullshit.

Well, you don't know, since you obviously disregard that the world is split into nation states based on...ethnic associations.
There are only few nations which have built a seperate identity while sharing the same ethnicity, mostly due to their religion: Pakistanis, Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats, these are just a few amongst the large amounts of nation states based on ethnic associations.

Massive pile of bullcrap indeed. I think that the massive pile of bullshit takes place in the parts you live in. It has found it's way into your head, as it seems.

The notion of ethnicity isn't lost in my "mixed blood" (and this statement is hilarity in and of itself, your blood is as "mixed" as my own, which is to say, not at all, we're both equally human)

If it isn't lost, why do you have such a hard time in understanding the concept? You just can't figure out why the concept exists, and therefore, label it as an illusion, whereas it is far from being an illusion.
My blood is quite pure, I will not tell you about my glorious ancestry and the exact criteria which deems it to be pure.

Being human is...well, is like being human. Everyone is born human. But not everyone is born a Turk. You are not born a Turk.

I am both proud and ashamed of the actions of all of my various "ethnicities".

Yeah, I wonder how you manage to do that... You don't speak their languages, you don't know anything about their culture, you do not live amongst them, how can you really state that you are proud, or ashamed of being OF them? You're nothing but the result of an artifical social construct, the American identity.The only real distinction you put between people is therefore the "colour of the skin", black, white, yellow and red.
Not german, italian, japanese, chinese, bantu or somali.
For you, a bantu and somali are equally "black", therefore you refer to Obama as "black" while his mother was actually white.
Things are too superficial and simple for you people. Maybe they have been simplified for you so that you can actually make some sort of sense as your short existence as a *nation*.

No specific one of my ancestors deserves any respect on the basis of their ethnicity, and no rights are conferred by any given ethnicity to which I am a party.

Well, by living in the US, and being of mixed blood, I can think why you would not exalt a single line of your ancestors while dismissing the other.
People cannot defy their blood. So can't I. I have no other stream within my veins but the Turk, for that purpose, I only exalt the Turk above the others, with whom I share no connection. You maybe share so many connections that you don't know what to do with them. As you cannot connect with a specific one, you rather use a collective term, *human*, to describe yourself, which is way, way too collective, as I see little similarities between you and me besides being of the same species.

Your views and my own are irreconcilable here, and I honestly couldn't care less how dark your heart might be in this regard, as long as you don't bring that bullshit out into the world (as would be the case with your notions of "Turan").

If I would not share these views with the world, why would I hold them?
One day, we shall form Turan. At that day, this black heart of mine will shine with a bright light.

At that point, it's pass the ammunition and eliminate the tyranny that exists within the desires of men that the ignorant seem incapable of containing within themselves.

Read the first page, if you will, to see how my vision is the quite opposite of what you would believe it to be.
But I think that your self-indocrination has given you a false concept of the moral upper hand over people such as me. This is why you automatically diss the idea of Turan, even though you and your parts of the world are rather irrelevant to what we hold in regard for our own future, not for yours.

[The Grand Nudger]

Fail of epic proportions. The many cultures and ethnicities that came together in this melting pot is exactly what it means to be American. Turkey is also a melting pot, and it's been cooking for a fair bit longer than the US. You clearly don't have any idea of just how easy it is to pin down this or that "American" thing to it's ethnicity of origin. We didn't abandon where we came from, we combined them all, and we now have pride in all of them collectively. Sometimes too much, there are "American" things which are most likely nothing to be proud of. The same is true of your own culture, whether you like to think about it or not (clearly you don't, you just maintain that these things never happened, we've been here before, that's a head-in-the-sand sort of pride). The "american identity" is a construct, and so is your "turkish identity". You have one set of rules for everyone else's identity and then a different set for your own? Again, garbage.

I believe that your blood is pure, purely human, same as mine. The rest of this is likely to be a family fairy tale. Go get sequenced with your new-found wealth? How do you know what languages I can speak? Pro-tip, you don't, and pro-tip...I can. But this is completely irrelevant, am I required to be able to speak every language my ancestors ever spoke to qualify as "proud"? Are you? Bullshit again. I actually refer to our president as "American", you're projecting. He's about as "black" as I am "white".

Your vision of "Turan" is exactly what I perceive it to be, you just don't like to call it such because you have a special set of rules for whatever your own ethnicity does or deems it's "rights".

These are not my last words on the subject...lol.