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Interesting argument for the non-existence of God
April 21, 2012 at 1:59 pm
(This post was last modified: April 21, 2012 at 2:01 pm by Tea Earl Grey Hot.)
Some of you may have read this before, but it's new to me. Dean Stretton wrote this argument that attempts to prove the non-existence of God by using problems that middle knowledge creates that theists probably never foresaw. It's a very lengthy argument, and you have to read it slowly. Basically, if God has middle knowledge, then there's no reason for a free person to not stop another person's suffering because it ultimately all works out for good in the end. Said person is morally justified in allowing the evil then. He argues that even the most rational theist would not allow all suffering even if they knew all suffering would be worked out for good, so they are not morally justified in allowing any evil to occur, and from that he says that no theists knows God exists. After this, he argues that basically that God does not exist because no theists really knows God exist (it's more sophisticated than that in the article). My summary is very simplistic so don't critique my summary and expect to be critiquing the argument itself.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/d...n/mae.html
What do you think of it?
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"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
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RE: Interesting argument for the non-existence of God
April 21, 2012 at 2:21 pm
Does evil exist and if so how can it be defined?
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RE: Interesting argument for the non-existence of God
April 21, 2012 at 2:25 pm
(April 21, 2012 at 2:21 pm)WallaceT Wrote: Does evil exist and if so how can it be defined?
I'm not sure if the argument assumes evil actually exists.
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RE: Interesting argument for the non-existence of God
April 21, 2012 at 2:40 pm
(April 21, 2012 at 2:25 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: (April 21, 2012 at 2:21 pm)WallaceT Wrote: Does evil exist and if so how can it be defined?
I'm not sure if the argument assumes evil actually exists.
Why did you abandon your nothing thread?
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RE: Interesting argument for the non-existence of God
April 21, 2012 at 2:42 pm
"Almost everyone will admit that there are some evils - the horrendous evils of the Holocaust, for example - that are totally inscrutable."
That is a quote from the opening of the text. Clearly the author acknowledges the existence of the concept.
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RE: Interesting argument for the non-existence of God
April 21, 2012 at 2:48 pm
(This post was last modified: April 21, 2012 at 2:48 pm by Tea Earl Grey Hot.)
(April 21, 2012 at 2:42 pm)WallaceT Wrote: "Almost everyone will admit that there are some evils - the horrendous evils of the Holocaust, for example - that are totally inscrutable."
That is a quote from the opening of the text. Clearly the author acknowledges the existence of the concept.
My mistake then. I forgot about that. I read this article two weeks ago and haven't looked at it again until this morning when I decided to share it.
I'm still not sure why the question of the definition evil is relevant to the argument.
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RE: Interesting argument for the non-existence of God
April 21, 2012 at 3:45 pm
(This post was last modified: April 21, 2012 at 3:56 pm by WallaceT.)
Hi there Phil! Do I detect a tone of hostility and bitterness in your post?
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RE: Interesting argument for the non-existence of God
April 21, 2012 at 4:11 pm
That's just how he rolls.
Idiots seem to bring out the worst in him 
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm
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RE: Interesting argument for the non-existence of God
April 21, 2012 at 4:18 pm
(This post was last modified: April 21, 2012 at 5:09 pm by Tea Earl Grey Hot.)
I'm going to try to get the conversation back on course.
I could be wrong, but I don't see how defining evil is needed for this argument. It's not your standard existence of evil means there's no God argument. I think it's showing how theists acting inconsistently towards what they (the theists) see as evil, shows God doesn't exist. Here's an outline of the argument taken from the Iron Chariots wiki:
Quote:A1. The most rational theists know (i.e., have a justified, true belief) that God exists.
A2a. For any possible world W, if God exists in W, then every instance of evil in W is objectively justified.
A2b. If God exists, then there is objective justification for any actual instance of evil, including those evils for which there is a human onlooker
A2. If God exists, then there is objective justification for every actual instance of evil, justification that will occur even if no onlooker intervenes to stop or prevent that evil.
A3. Some members of the class of most rational theists (as I have defined that class) are theists who know A2.
A4. Some of the most rational theists (namely, those who know A2) know that there is objective justification for any actual instance of evil, justification that will occur even if no onlooker intervenes to stop or prevent that evil.
A5. If human person P knows that there is objective justification for evil E, and that this justification will occur even if P does not intervene to stop or prevent E, then P is morally justified in allowing E to occur.
A6. Some of the most rational theists (namely, those who know A2) are morally justified in allowing any actual evil to occur.
A7. If the most rational theists know that God exists, then some of those theists (namely, those who know A2) are morally justified in allowing any evil to occur.
A8. Even the most rational theists (including those who know A2) are not morally justified in allowing just any evil to occur.
A9. Even the most rational theists do not know that God exists.
A10. If the most rational theists do not know that God exists, then no theist knows that God exists.
A11. No theist knows that God exists.
A12. For any given theist, that theist’s belief that God exists is either false or unjustified.
A13. If God exists, then some theists are justified in believing that God exists.
A14. If God exists, then no theist has a false belief that God exists.
A15. If God exists, then some theists know (i.e., have a justified, true belief) that God exists.
A16. It is not the case that some theists know (i.e., have a justified and true belief) that God exists.
A17. God does not exist.
This argument can be summarized as follows:
A1 to A2 – If God exists, then all instances of evil are morally justifiable by definition.
A3 to A7 – If all events are morally justifiable, then some believers know that they should not try to stop any instance of presumed evil.
A8 – Yet they do intervene.
A9 to A17 – Therefore their own behaviour proves that God does not exist.
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"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
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RE: Interesting argument for the non-existence of God
April 21, 2012 at 4:40 pm
(April 21, 2012 at 3:45 pm)WallaceT Wrote: Hi there Phil! Do I detect a tone of hostility and bitterness in your post?
No, you detect me asking the OP why he abandoned a thread. Now you swill detect hatred and derision because you think your fucking able to be a psychic online. I have never seen a Christotard online that doesn't act like they can "read minds" due to a post. Whats there fucking problem?
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