Is there any secular reason why being gay is bad?

[LastPoet]

There is a huge difference between two men shaking hands, and two men holding hands.

Only to those that share the same sexual insecurities you have mehmet.

[Gooders1002]

Blame what?
I believe other peoples of this forum have noticed the lot of homosexuality themed threads around the forum, yes?

Yes I have

Well, maybe you can start by acting normal, if you don't do that already.
But other than that, do not expect me to treat you as a normal person.
Sorry.

I do but I decided to make a one off point

Well, you don't, or you can't?

I don't

Well, obviously these are things that other homosexuals like to do aswell.
But what is your identity? Do you become suddenly so defensive when someone states that he doesn't like computer games, getting drunk or laying in the sun? Obviously not.

I don't normal, but if you hit the right spot.

If you want to blend in, then I suggest that you do not sprout out as to create political controversies, yes?
Not just talking about you, I'm talking to homosexuals as a whole. But you obviously do vote for politicians on their stance regarding state policies towards the LGBT community, yes?
Then you do rather stand out with your identity. For those who want to blend in generally sacrifice a portion of their identity, always. You cannot blend in without doing that.
How would I blend in with the American public if I came there and dressed in my traditional clothing all the time?
How well would I blend in with the American public if I professed the same pride and nationalism I profess in this forum, amongst many Americans?
I'm standing out here, without really doing anything other than to write down words.

Firstly I am not America, I am British and I see Turks and Pakistani and Saudi men and women in more traditional garb every day so It make no difference to me. And I try my best to blend in.

But you do have the same rights, if you do not profess to your homosexual identity as your prime identity. You can get married with a woman, you can join the military, you can do this and that and everything that normal people are legally capable of.
However, with your homosexual identity, you're barred from entering the military, or marrying, although no one tells you that you can't open a business, start a bank account, get a driver's license or own property, yes?
The state treats you differently, because you treat yourself differently from everyone else.

I can be openly gay and be in the British army no questions asked,the only thing is that equal marriage we have almost equal marriage rites, just a few miner details.

Not that I really do care. And I'm sure that no one else does.

Agreed

I do not want to blend in with the rest, as I do not have to do that. I am the majority. I am a Turk. There is no way for me to stick out, other than politically, perhaps, but in no other way, am I a thorn in anyone's eyes..

Clearly you not been to the UK, unless you have.

Guns, weapons and arms are necessary when one's life, honour and country is at stake. Besides, our women wield guns as proficient as our men do.
There is a huge difference between two men shaking hands, and two men holding hands.

I agree with you point about Guns but your missing my point, and in Qutar and the UAE apparently straight men hold hands, but don't quote me on it.

[NoMoreFaith]

Well, maybe you can start by acting normal, if you don't do that already.

All arguments for normal rely on the fallacy ad populum, and irrelevant.

But what is your identity? Do you become suddenly so defensive when someone states that he doesn't like computer games, getting drunk or laying in the sun? Obviously not.

If any of these things were subject to discrimination, then yes, you would become defensive about it.
To a certain extent, liking computer games sometimes requires a defensive position, for instance, if you enjoy first person shooters, you may be defensive in company of those who think they are responsible for gun sprees. The history of promoting games as an artistic medium like television or movies has been defensive in nature.

Then you do rather stand out with your identity. For those who want to blend in generally sacrifice a portion of their identity, always. You cannot blend in without doing that.

Quick question, hypothetically clearly, if your country became gay by majority, would you start dating men instead of women?

But you do have the same rights, if you do not profess to your homosexual identity as your prime identity.
You can get married with a woman, you can join the military, you can do this and that and everything that normal people are legally capable of.

So Anti-miscegenation laws conferred equal rights to inter-racial couples because they still had the right to marry someone of the same racial background.

I think you misunderstand equal rights sir.

The state treats you differently, because you treat yourself differently from everyone else.

Then stop pretending they do have equal rights. People treat themselves differently based on religion, race, gender, and sexuality.

Evidently you believe this is a case for discrimination, I do not.

I do not want to blend in with the rest, as I do not have to do that. I am the majority. I am a Turk.

I read that as I am a Jerk, whoops.

Equal rights don't matter because its not an issue that affects you personally. The critical test would be whether you would accept discrimination if you weren't.

There is a huge difference between two men shaking hands, and two men holding hands.

As in the holding hands must be stopped.. because.. because.. um.. its not natural!.. damn, naturalistic fallacy,
Because its not NORMAL, damn damn, ad populum,

I've never been clear on what your basis is for your homophobia, other than it being exactly that, irrational fear.

[Zen Badger]

I think Mehmet protesteth too, too much.

Generally when that happens it it not other homosexuals they fear so much as the homosexual within themselves.

It's OK Mehmet, we'll keep your little secret.

[genkaus]

Is there and Secular reason why being gay is bad. not religious reasons, any not religious arguments?

I have a few. Well, not bad as in "sinful", but bad as in undesirable.

1. The most obvious one - most of the society is prejudiced against homosexuals. The bigotry and threat to their safety that they face is very much real.

2. Family expectations - It doesn't matter how open-minded or accepting your parents might be, they usually have certain expectation of how you'd live your lives. Realizing that's not going to happen would usually lead to strained relationship. Depending upon your parent's mindset, it can last for years. People often argue that if your parents love you they would understand and accept you for who you are. I think that's bullshit. Parents are always trying to change you - especially mothers. They genuinely do want what's best for you. But that does not mean that they can reconcile their idea of what's best for you with your idea of it. Especially when your idea contains the obvious risk and hardship.

3. Children - Accept it or not, but raising children is a big part of your life and its rare to find someone who doesn't feel like they are missing something if they don't. Whatever other options may be available to them, like surrogacy or adoption, they are automatically more difficult than natural conception. And given the nature vs nurture debate in a child's identity, there is something to be said about knowing that you are biologically connected to your child.

On a side note, I came up with these arguments while discussing the topic with some of my "politically correct" friends. They commented on how being gay is a personal choice for the person and society has no say in it. I pointed out that given all these disadvantages of being gay, its stupid to think that anyone in their right mind would want to be.

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And for good reason. I rather have the people out there with a reasonably harmonious identity, than with their deviant sexual identities.
Just as I do not go out and introduce myself to people as a "heterosexual", I do not want people to go out and introduce themselves to others as being homosexual. But I know that people who suffer from minority complex are very passionate about whatever that makes them a minority, and want everyone else to know that they are a "minority". The "coming out" process, essentially leaving behind whatever identity you have, to adopt your sexuality as your prime identity.

So the identity of a person should be dictated by whatever the society is comfortable with? While I do think that defining yourself by just one trait of your personality that wasn't your choice to begin with, I do think that that option is up to the person in question. The should neither be censured nor "corrected".

Just like thieves and murderers, any sexual deviants are directly harmful to society by the way they act. Is a provocator that agitates people to acts of arson and riot not harmful? Yet he only uses words, nothing else.

Any "harm" by the so called sexual deviants, exists only in your mind. Unlike your provocateur, they are not telling others to be gay or forcing their sexual identities on others.

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Well, maybe you can start by acting normal, if you don't do that already.
But other than that, do not expect me to treat you as a normal person.
Sorry.

Acting normal or acting according to your idea of normal? That is the last argument left for bigots who have realized that they don't have a rational argument to stand on - "We are okay with you being gay, just as long as you don't tell anyone."

[KichigaiNeko]

I'm with Zen on this one....me thinks mehmet protests FAR TOO much...

[Zen Badger]

I'm intrigued by the term "sanctity of marriage" which has been used frequently to challenge the idea of same sex marriage in these threads.

What does it even mean?

Why is marriage suddenly some inviolable institution that cannot be changed or even questioned?

After 20 years of marriage, when I decided I'd had enough I walked away.

And you know what happened? Nothing, no bolts of lightning, no plagues of boils, nothing.

So marriage is not so sacrosanct after all.

[Nine]

There is an obvious motivation behind the multitude of homosexuality related threads.
I'm going to break your game.

Its been kinda a big deal in the news recently. Don't want to break your delusion of grandeur but I think that had more to do with it than wanting to debate you.

<3

[KichigaiNeko]

In the 'older days' to be "married" was to have a male take FULL responsibility for the care and upkeep of his female. In the 21st Century this is no longer an issue. In fact the population is such that we can well do without the 'Go forth and multiply' and that females have no REAL NEED financially to be dependant on a male for her brood. So the IS NO sanctimonious marriage never was, only in the eyes of the religious perverts who weren't getting any sex is it of interest.

[Zen Badger]

I think Mehmet protesteth too, too much.

Generally when that happens it it not other homosexuals they fear so much as the homosexual within themselves.

It's OK Mehmet, we'll keep your little secret.

For you Mehmet